Friday, September 25, 2026

I think it's fair amount.

Good morning. Welcome to-

Welcome to the Middlesex Township Workshop Meeting to order. Let us rise and remove our hats, and give the pledge.

(The Pledge of Allegiance, recited together.) "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Good morning.

Good morning.

All right, we'll start with public comment. This is for matters that do not appear on the agenda today. If there's an item on the agenda, just wait until we address that agenda item. Again, this is for Middlesex Township residents and taxpayers only. You're limited to three minutes. No seating or talking. You're up.

Good morning. My name is Hilda Vazquez, Country Manor West. I request that I be clearly and fully recorded in the official minutes of this meeting... up to date. I am formally beginning the process of organizing, structuring, and submitting a formal complaint for the FBI to request an investigation into the action and decision of the township. And starting today, I will gather and organize all evidence regarding how the 2018 environmental permits originally granted for the Cumberland North Residential Project have been amended in a presumably irregular manner in favor of the PAX-1 Industrial Data Center project.

This continue amended are already the subject of an active case before DEP and under court order. Let the record show that I have formally request the immediate cancellation of the blasting permit. About solar panel, furthermore, I will organize for federal authority the documentation based on official property map demonstrating that the wealth Cumberland County hold the title to this land, the township operating critical water and filtration infrastructure therein. I publicly denounce the stunning maneuver and change being made through the use of municipal assessment to enable this industry micro project directly bordering and impacting the surrounding land of the Stover family. As a resident, I demand that federal authority investigate the pattern of land use decision made that compromises public resource and the right of all community.

Definitely, this township, everything what start doing about the land, make everything quiet. The resident don't know nothing what you do, what this township do with the land. Please be clear with the resident. The resident vote for you. Vote for you. They putting everything in your hands, and you do everything under the table. Everything like what this township do is for the township convenience. Nothing is for the resident. Thank you.

Thank you. Anybody else? Yes.

You ready?

... From Wolf Ridge Road. I'm just curious why we have a planning commission workshop and a supervisory workshop. If you guys aren't doing your job all week long, then why do we have a workshop where you guys make recommendations and motions and all that, and then you do the same thing again when you have the meeting? I'm just curious why we do that.

Why we take action at a workshop meeting?

Yep.

It's a duly advertised public meeting with a quorum of the board of supervisors, and there's a lot of things to address in the township, so it's within our rights to act on things at a workshop meeting.

But can it be just consolidated into one meeting instead of having two?

Well, that's certainly something we can consider, to have one board of supervisor meeting a month. Some municipalities do that, and we're obviously gonna appoint another supervisor today, and that's something that a full board can discuss, the schedule moving forward. But

I would assume that you guys, you know, talk to each other all week long or all, you know, however often you get together in private sessions and discuss the same stuff that we're discussing today.

Well, as you well know, because of Sunshine Law, we're not allowed to discuss things on a board of three with the other supervisors. I discuss things with the solicitor, maybe with Mark, with Zach, with Eileen, with the engineer, supervisors. And a board of three are not allowed to discuss issues outside of a public meeting.

Just something to consider. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah. Good morning,..., Country Club Road. I was speaking first for myself, then for my disabled neighbor. I'd like to thank the board, I'd like to thank our planning commission, Mark Carpenter, for the overlay that they made with PAX-1. I'd like to thank Charlie, Andrew, Justin, and all the other folks of PAX-1 and Maine Drilling and Blasting. Well, since Maine Drilling and Blasting had started across the street on Country Club Road, we, the residents, have had issues to our property and to something,... too. Well, we went through the process of signing paperwork and forwarding it to them.

You know, we had a gentleman from PAX, I mean, from Maine, Fabio Segarra. He come and looked at our stuff after we sent it in. It's just like the old saying, "Deny, deny, deny." Every request, every form was exactly the same. But here's what I wanna understand. According to... 7/16 and 6/24, according to DEP, they was, had violations for blasting. And then on the one day, they had a super blast which knocked things off of people's walls. People ran outside their house to look to see what happened, explosion. But according to Maine, their seismograph showed nothing. I don't understand this. How could we have these blasts that never show up in the seismograph?

Well, I'll explain. If you look at the DEP's mining regulations where they put out these seismographs, they did it illegally. They were not placed according to their regulations, so anything they have is null and void. So being good citizens, we sent letters to Mr., I don't wanna say his name, Gal, Migal, Feibush, whoever he is. He told us he would just take care of our residents. He wanted good relationships and they want to be the best partners they ever could be. Well, after writing letters, not only myself but four other people, he called his secretary to verify that he received the letters.

Well, again, he fell on deaf ears. Not one answer. So they're really good people. So what does that give us residents as chance of standing? Well, this township, they don't want to stand behind us. It's proven in PAX-1 they have no care about, they won't even answer our letters. Maine, well, Drilling, they have nothing. They say, "Hey, we have no responsibility in this." So where does that leave us poor residents, poor people up there, retired people standing back down? Who has to pay this bill for our repairs? Well, you know, here's the issue. We're gonna let them continue to blast because I think their blasting's coming up next.

Our only option is to start at the top, whoever gives the permits, who hired Maine Drilling, and Maine Drilling will have to have a lawsuit against them. Do we really have the money to do this? No, but I do. So, you know, PAX-1 or Maine Drilling is gonna have to come to the table to take care of this, because there's gonna be another lawsuit against everybody. Now, I'm speaking for my neighbor. On September 2nd at Cumberland Valley High School, Mr. Neiderer, you shut me down when I stated I was there reading a letter for a disabled veteran. You stated he couldn't ask no questions, so I wasn't allowed to speak.

Well, this really upset him, so he goes to the American Disabilities Act, people come to the house, they questioned me about what was going on. They reviewed two films from the meeting and they said his rights were violated. I was discriminated against because I wasn't allowed to read his letter. Well, I guess that's leading to another lawsuit because the township doesn't understand that I have the right to represent him. He has the right to have a speak at a meeting, even though he can't be in person. His rights were violated, I was discriminated against. So, I think here in the future, there's another lawsuit for me, discrimination against this poor veteran.

Thank you very much for having us today.

Anybody else? Next. All right, we'll move on to the agenda, discussion of possible motion of appointment of a township supervisor to fill the vacant position of former supervisor Bill Goodhart. I think if we've discussed, the supervisor who will be appointed will serve through the end of 2027, actually till the first Sunday in January of 2028. If that person who is selected shall want to continue to serve, they will have to get on the ballot this upcoming spring, to get through a primary and then go through the general election in November. Should that person or any other individual who wants to run for this role get elected for that position, the vacant position that we're filling today, that term would run through the end of 2029.

Usually a municipal supervisor is elected for a six-year term. They like to stagger the terms, so you're not having three new supervisors come in at the same time. Every two years. And then- Every two years, one. Right. And so I'm fairly certain that Supervisor Geistwhite's term is also up at the end of 2027. You'd be... You would have to, if you're gonna run again, would have to be elected again next year. So there will be two people running for the supervisor role in 2027. We did get four letters of interest and four resumes from eligible township residents.

I think we had some excellent applicants. I personally interviewed everybody on the phone. I spent an hour with everybody just, you know, trying to determine their background, their qualifications, their interest in the job, whether or not they would be interested in running again, although that really was not a non-starter for me. And so we have to make a decision. But we'll open up to public comment if anybody wants to comment about this appointment before we make a motion. Again, in accordance with Sunshine Law, I had not discussed any of the candidates with Supervisor Geistwhite.

I don't know if he's reached out to many. I'm sure he's talked to people, as I did. I talked to other people who knew the applicants. I reached out to a number of people, as well as township staff who knew some of the, who knew most of the applicants. So that was helpful for me, not only to interview the applicants, but to reach out to other people who knew these individuals at a personal or professional level. Is there any public comment anyone would like to make on this matter? Again, it's a difficult decision because we had four really excellent candidates.

I really appreciate the fact that people were willing to step up and serve the township. I told everybody when I talked to them on the phone that if you're not selected, please consider other opportunities within the township, whether it's zoning hearing board, planning commission, you know, getting involved in the comprehensive plan. We had our first meeting yesterday. So there's certainly a lot of opportunities, and other opportunities that will arise as the years go by. But I was really looking for someone who had, you know, leadership capabilities, someone who's been in a leadership role. And again, I, we have very...

I'd be, you know, satisfied to have any of these applicants up here with us making decisions. For me, I felt Joe Vancosky had the most leadership skills for this role. Again, it was a very difficult decision for me. And so I don't know if the Supervisor Geistwhite has any... Yes, if we have not discussed this at all.

No, we haven't. We can't, we can't, which is ridiculous. But anyhow, I went through all of these, talked to a couple of them. And plus, I know Joe from, I can never pronounce it right, Vancosky, from Dunham Army Hospital, where he is, because I go there for treatment periodically. And he's a good manager. He also is willing to listen. I just, I think it was some close competition in this whole thing when you read most of them. Every single one that we read is basically qualified, in my opinion. But that's sort of the one who I'd like to recommend.

So I'll make a motion to appoint Joseph Vancosky township supervisor to fill the vacant position.

Do I have a second?

Second.

All's in favor? Aye. Aye. Motion carries. And Mr.- He's here? He's here. Mr. Vancosky, you stand up and just- There he is.... wave. I'm sure people will get to meet you soon. Maybe people wanna talk to you... Okay. Maybe people wanna talk to you afterwards. That would be great if you could stay a little bit and then, you know, meet with Zach, because we'll have to get you to take the oath of office. And then- We're gonna do that properly. Right. So, thank you. And-

... afterwards,..., and available to all of you to listen to any concerns.

And I'll certainly touch base with Zach before I leave. I appreciate it. I consider it an honor and an absolute privilege to serve this township and the residents that are here. So thank you for the confidence you have in me, and I won't let you guys down.

You won't.

Thank you. Discussion, possible motion on preliminary final land development plan for Ahold Delhaize Solar Development. The current review ends December 16, 2026. Our board of supervisor action deadline, which really is just based on our last scheduled meeting before the deadline, is December 2nd, 2026. And you are? Introduce yourself, please.

... There we go.

All right. Yeah, Justin Galison with Scale Microgrid. We are the owner-developer of... We were back here in June, end of June, and there was a request for us to go and obtain an agreement with the Beattys for access to the property in order to avoid the bridge that had some limitations, in order to access the site. We have done that. Stu is with me today. So we've worked pretty closely with the Beattys, and the entire family over there has been great to work with, and came to an agreement, which has been executed as of about two weeks ago.

I believe copy of that's been sent to the town. And so we're just formally requesting that the land development plan be approved based on that, because the last condition that we need to meet in order to get that approved.

Could you explain the agreement, the terms of it, generally?

Sure. Sure, yeah. So, you know, basically what we've come to an agreement with is to pay the Beattys at various milestones. So upon execution of this, plus there's two... three other milestones in there, in order for us to maintain access. So one will be when we mobilize, one will be during construction, and one will be at final construction. So that'll be three forced payments to the family throughout the course of the construction period. We've also come to an agreement that we will work with one of their contacts on the road to maintain the road.

So the road will need to be maintained and slightly upgraded in order to facilitate the trucks as they come in and out. And then whatever damage happens during the course of construction will also be repaired once that is complete. So-

The road you're referring to is Stambaugh

Lane? Stambaugh Lane, correct. Yeah. Okay. Apologize, yeah.

No, it's not Stambaugh Lane. It's a field road from Stambaugh Lane- Straight down... parallel to 81 over to Shady Lane.

Okay. It's a- So it's not called Stambaugh Lane-

No.

What is it?

Uh-uh.

It's a private, it's a private driveway-

Okay... across the field. Called Stambaugh Lane. Okay. Well, no, it's a f- Some of the things that I read referred to it as Stambaugh Lane, but it's a field road. Yeah. It's a gravel access road.

And I mean, it's in pretty good shape, you know, for what it is, honestly. It's a good road. But we're gonna make sure that it stays in good condition. And then obviously, a part of the agreement is that whatever damage occurs- Basically a former road... after the construction is completed, we will also repair that. Which, you know, we don't expect there to be much. There's very limited heavy truck traffic. There's, you know, very, very few pieces of equipment that are that heavy. The majority of the traffic will be just pickup trucks and the like for the workers coming back and forth.

Doesn't the agreement also give the right of the Middlesex Township Fire Department to use this for emergency access?

It does, yes.

Yeah, okay.

Is that, Stambaugh Lane is a... The paved part is a township road? Yes. Okay.

Yeah.

Just a question for Mr. Beatty, if you don't mind me asking. I know you did speak before. Mm-hmm. And when your family sold this parcel, you were aware of what the use was-

Mm-hmm.

... that it was gonna be a solar array, correct?

When the... I mean, the whole background story is my grandfather, like, came from my grandfather's side. They sold it in like 1990, forever ago, and then it went through that whole... and then there was restrictions put on the property for development on there, just so basically it would help to protect the whole family parcels that were back there. And we never had an i- Like I said, we never had an issue with the solar project going in, because we're believers. Like, it's their property, and it was just about following what came along with it. And essentially, there just wasn't good communication at the beginning.

And now with that, you know, we're perfectly fine with it, so.

Okay.

I mean, there's a lot worse things that could have happened to me.

Good. Thank you. Sure. And Chief Beam, just your take on the whole project. I know you and I talked earlier this week about solar arrays and fire, and I'd shared with you some information that I got from the Penn State Extension website. And it was, North Carolina State had a nice, I don't know, about a 10 or 12 page- That was good. Yeah, so if anybody wants to... Penn State Extension, you know, free, they're online. Some are webinars you have to sign up for, some things you can read.

They have a really excellent product that just came out, it was April of this year, on solar arrays, safety and so forth. So if you wanna comment on any concerns that you may have in regards to this solar array?

I think the main concern I had was the access road- Yeah... leading across, that would be available to the fire department. Right now as it stands, we cannot take a vehicle and our apparatus across the bridge. Obviously with a ton of movement, and we got 30, 40 ton pieces of apparatus that would be able to access that.

So this would provide not only for the residents there, but also for the new project. I have no problem with that. The only correction I would make to the agreement, and it might be a technical issue, but Middlesex Township does not have a fire department. And I would like that to indicate that any fire company contracted with the township for a mutual aid response would have access onto that road.

It does discuss:

"Grantor agrees to grant emergency access to the township in writing in a letter in a form acceptable to the township, allowing the township to have access for emergency access."

Right. This doesn't mention the fire department in that section of the- Yeah. Well- We could get-

It doesn't mention about the Middlesex Township Fire Department, which we don't have. Yeah, it does. It does in there.

Maybe it's tucked inside.

It's in there. Yes.

Well. That would be correct.

Well, how much land is that? That stretch

right there. Is that Stambaugh, or is that you?

So the farmland is the Beattys'. Right. And then basically you take... So you take Stambaugh Lane, and then it basically, we have a gate there- Right. I see... because the problem we ran into is we could never get construction done at our property because of that bridge. So we literally had to buy the property next to us-... so we could get things done.

What is that, about 60 acres?

That's, it's 40 acres. 40. So, but then we had that access point. But for emergency service purposes, those gates will both be locked, and then we'll have keypads on them so that any emergency services- Can get in... will have access to that.

So if they need to come through there. So we'll keep it locked down, but like this, Justin's group will have access, emergency service will have access, and if there's anybody else that the township determines needs access to that, we can make sure that, you know- Got it... they have access to that.

The township would require a Knox Box on both gates. Yeah. That's what he's saying. Yeah. Knox Box.

Okay. That's acceptable to you, Chief? Yes. Okay. Everything checked- And I guess, Bud, what-

Everything is good. I'm very glad to see that everything's been resolved. Okay. And I think we're ready to go, subject. So I'd recommend that the plan be approved subject to our standard conditions that we normally attach to a plan, such as finding the plan and providing the developer's agreement- Mm-hmm... et cetera, et cetera. I think Mark has that in this version.

And I know we have some planning commission members here, at least two of you were here to vote on this.

Who was at the meeting, I don't know if Mark-

They recommended approval with the condition that an access agreement be achieved between the developer and Beatty. And that's your- Okay. I think the waiver requests still have to be a-

acted on. Yes. Yes. And we have those. So I'll make a motion. I move that we-

Comments? Comments?

Oh, yeah, public comment. Sure. Thank you very much.

Doug Graham, Appaloosa Lane, also on the planning commission. Obviously we had a lot of discussion about this, and it didn't go that well in a lot of cases. Some of the concerns were addressed, and I did, of course, continue to follow up research as this went along, knowing it would come up. Now, granted, you've granted access to the property for the fire trucks and emergency equipment, but it's still private property. Who's going to plow that open in the wintertime? This is private property. Private.

Yes. Private. Fire trucks can't go on there. So we have... So we do actually have, like, a Kawasaki with a snow plow. So we'll be taking that-... you know, major winter events where if we need to get to. We also have contracts with different plow services to make sure that in case of a big snowstorm of some kind, that we'll have that taken care of as well. And we're actually also getting generators on the property to kind of just help with additional emergency services. But we do have a plow that we actually, we do all our stuff too at the kennel as well.

So we plow the parking lots and stuff like that, as much as my sister makes me plow-... multiple intervals to help. But yeah, we do have a way to make sure that road is clear during major winters.

So that's written in the agreement, that it will maintained and be open?

That we, that as the Beattys, we will maintain. Once they are done with construction and past that phase, the Beattys then are in charge of making sure that road stays open.

Written in the agreement? I believe so, yes. Doug, I believe I read that, I just read it again yesterday, but I believe that's in there. Yeah. Thank you. Those are the kind of things that get forgotten over time.

Doug, one thing, could, when you write a letter granting emergency access to the township, could it also give us the ability to plow it in the event of an emergency if it wasn't open?

Yeah. That's fine. Okay. I'll, we'll have our attorney work on that.

Is that acceptable to the road master?

Yeah.

Yeah.

We've done that before. Yeah. Right. I mean, it follows in the event that, I mean, we do state roads or private roads. If there's an emergency, we make sure that the emergency companies have access to the property.

Okay. Yeah, 'cause like when it snows, like we're out there like multiple times just with the Kawasaki or doing what we need to on our property. So it's just kind of adding that up there. And we place, we have talked to other services so that if we need to get that plowed, we'll have somebody with a pickup truck coming up with a plow to make sure that is clear, so.

Zach, we gotta make sure Kevin plows that area, doesn't he? Yes. We gotta make sure he doesn't pile the snow at the end of Stambaugh Lane.

Correct.

And I think the important thing obviously with making sure that road is plowed is not just because of the solar array. All of that's certainly important. What's more important is people live there, and there's dogs there, and God forbid there's a fire, you know, you need to have access to protect yourselves, your personal property, and your animals.

Oh, yeah. Well, the big thing is if the chief's, is comfortable that road is stable enough in wet conditions and snowy conditions to drive a 40-ton fire truck on, that's the big thing. Yeah. You know? Yeah. He's good with that. Okay. That's good. The only other question I had, you know, after I continued to go back through the reading all of our fantastic zoning rules and regulations and stuff is- I believe that's zone C-2 out there, and that is not included on our chart as an acceptable use.

What, what's not? The solar?

C-2. In a C-2 zone.

The solar array? Yeah. They got approval under the prior zoning ordinance.

So it's prior? Yeah. Okay. That's good. Okay, I knew. I, you did tell me that right when I forgot, so... That's all I got.

One more thing to quickly add.

Yeah.

Just in that light, as for fire hydrants or for wa- 'cause I mean, I know you're talking emergency services and especially with fires. Mm-hmm. The one thing that isn't back there is, like, there's no fire hydrants along that section of Shady Lane. The last fire hydrant I think is up by the kitchen shop, I think by the mailbox. Right. But after that, they would have to draw potentially from the torque, potentially, you know, for water services. So I'm just giving you a heads up that there's-

Well, Ed, Ed would address this.

We have about 10,000 gallons of water pretty much within seven minutes of dispatch.

And then you said you also could extend from that fire hydrant over to the field.

We could do that, yes. It would be time-consuming, but we would have-

But with that emergency road, they could bring a 10,000-

We have-

... gallon tanker in.

Yeah. We have plenty of tankers available, but it's all on a first alarm basis. Right.

Mm-hmm. Just so people are, you know, the more you know.

Thank you. Mr. Gehr.

Good morning. Jim Gehr, Spring Road, Middlesex Township. I'd like to make a positive comment with regards to this application, and I believe that this is, you know, our township is under a lot of criticism. Some warranted, maybe some not. I think this is a very positive example where the process has worked for all parties involved, and I just wanna thank everyone involved, including the property owner as well as the applicant, so, and the township. So thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you.

Another public comment, and

I'll move that we approve waivers for the following sections-... of the Middlesex Township Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance number 8-2017 for the preliminary final land development plan for Ahold Delhaize Solar Development, subject to the applicant providing a written request and justification for each waiver, and listing the waivers on the cover sheet of the plan set.

1. SALDO Section 703.E.1, waiver of pavement material requirements for the private access drive to allow use of alternative pavement materials.

2. SALDO Section 707, deferral of requirements for sidewalk along Shady Lane abutting the development property with required note on plan.

3. SALDO Section 708, waiver of requirements for curbing along Shady Lane abutting the development property.

Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? Aye. Aye. Motion carries.

I move that we approve the preliminary final land development plan for the Ahold Delhaize Solar Development, subject to the following conditions.

1. That the applicant satisfies comments of Bud Grove, Township Engineer, in a written report titled Review Number 5, dated June 19, 2026, subject to his final review.

2. That the applicant satisfies comments of the Cumberland County Planning Department in a written report dated January 22nd, 2026, for plat number P26-5.

3. That for Section 710.E.2.b of the Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance number 8-2017 as amended, the applicant pays to Middlesex Township the required fee in lieu of dedication of park and recreation areas for the subdivision of $1,000 per disturbed acre of development area prior to the final plans being signed by the township and released for recording.

4. That the applicant enters into a developer's agreement with Middlesex Township regarding required public improvements and posts financial security for required public improvements, as-built plans and engineering inspection fees for this plan with the township in an amount acceptable to the township engineer and form acceptable to the township solicitor prior to the final plans being signed by the township and released for recording.

5. That when plans are released by Middlesex Township for recording at the Cumberland County Office of Recorder of Deeds, the applicant records all plan sheets of the plan set.

Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? Aye. Question.

The, my latest memorandum is dated September 24th, 2026, instead of June 19th of 2026.

September 24th.

Right.

Right. 2026. Right. That's correct. Would you make that correction, please? Thank you.

Do you agree with the conditions?

We do. Yeah.

Thank you. So we have a motion, second. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries. Thank you for coming.

And I wanted to tell you one last thing. This doesn't have to do with this, but separate from, you mentioned the Penn State- The extension? Yeah. DEP has something similar that's called the Clean Water Academy, that there's something that if there's certain things you wanna see webinars, presentations, trainings on, that's something you can request to the DEP that they might be able to publish and put online for free to use. Oh. A lot of people don't know about it because they have horrible PR, and... But it is a resource for people to use for, because we teach about, like, how to identify wetlands-...

wetlands restoration. But with everything going on in the township, it might be worth it to make a request towards DEP to maybe put something out there free on, you know, impacts and, like, information that might be helpful to everybody. So it's just a thing I thought I'd mention, just 'cause, you know?

Yeah, I watched the one on unblocked septic systems.

It's online there. Yes. So, it's-

It's another reason. Sure. Thank you. Yes. All right. Thanks for coming. Thank you very much.

All right, discussion, possible motion on alternate signers to replace Mr. Larson and Mr. Goodhart on the joint township authority building maintenance account at First National Bank. Zach, take it away.

This account

is something that the Middlesex Township Municipal Authority maintains. When that building was originally built, they provided the funds to build this building. We are in a lease with them to actually purchase the building. But this agreement was set up a l- actually, building maintenance as needed on the building. We had the roof done a few years ago. HVAC, anything that needed work done from maintenance. Don is on it. Obviously, Steve Larson and Bill Goodhart were both on the account. They have, well, Steve has been replaced. He's voted out, Bill has resigned, so we need signers to take their place.

Also, members of the board and Rory are also on the account as signers to sign any checks that need done for this account. I don't know if you remember, at the reorganization meeting, we actually appointed Neiderer as the part of the board to oversee the building maintenance. So this is kind of one of those things. Rory said that, back and forth with an email with First National Bank, we could appoint myself as a manager to be one of the signers, and Phil Neiderer as a signer if we'd like. We could wait until Mr. Vancosky comes on board and appoint him to be a signer as well.

We need two. How often are things having to be signed?

Not very often. A few times a year?

At the most

Now we can ask.

Okay.

If I can just-

I think I only signed two things in all the years that I've done

So a little bit of an oversight that Mr. Larson was still listed as a signer. Have we gone through all the other things, all the other accounts, to make sure that he's no longer a signer?

Our accounts are good. This was something that Rory's been going through his accounts. So he was looking at this and thought this needed updated.

Okay. So we're good from a township side? That's right. Okay. So I don't know if I can make a motion for myself to be a signer. I guess I can. Let me- Or Don, maybe you should make the motion

... make a move that Dr. Phil Neiderer be appointed as a signatory for the township. As well as Zach Zook. As well. Oh, I didn't know about that.

As well as Zach Zook.

There we go.

Do I have a second? I'll second. All in favor? Aye. Pass. Okay.

Move, Zach

Zook.

Discussion of possible motion on request to release maintenance security for Jack Williams Tire and Auto Service Center Land Development plan. Bud, there's been an awful lot of emails that I've read from you- Geez, yeah... and the tire people. I am so tired of talking about Jack Williams.

Various and sundry reasons for not getting things done.

And I had to look up what a bollard was.

What a bollard is. Yeah. It, last month, this started in June. I was gonna say. And last month, they said they would have everything done within two weeks. Well- Then- Last week, last week they called and said, "Oh, we ran into a problem." So we came up with a plan B, but I'm gonna recommend that you set aside October 14th as a deadline date to have everything done, and if not done by then, let the township take their money. Township what?

I'm tired of the excuses. It was interesting reading that. Well, you know.

So I guess we have to, I don't know if we have to make a motion on that because we're not making- Yes... a motion to release the maintenance security.

Right. You're not making a motion to release it, but you're making, you're, a mo- you would be making a motion to hold the security if the work is not done by October 14th.

All right, I'll make a motion that the Middlesex Township take the maintenance security from Jack Williams Tire and Auto Service Center Land Development unless the required work is completed by October 14, 2026. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Well, good at least And you'll reach out to them?

Oh, yes. Let them know. Oh, yes. Okay. They're probably waiting for me right now to respond.

All right, discussion and possible motion on DEP Sewage Facilities application for public sewer planning exemption for preliminary final land development plan for Sheetz Store 191 rebuild. This is the Route 11 and- Wolf Bridge Road... Wolf Bridge Road.

And there she is, back again.

Hello. Oh. Yeah, so we're here to request the signature, or the release of the signature, for the sewer planning module for I believe an additional eight EUs. There's 13 currently secured for the property. They need an additional eight for it. So it's just the rebuild of the store. I know we haven't been in front of the supervisors yet, but we're in the process of land development. We've been to the planning commission once, received township, county report comments, so we're just responding to those at this time. We're trying to move forward-... sewer mailer as the project progresses through the township.

This is gonna be the second time it's been rebuilt.

Believe so, yes. Yeah. At least.

And Mark, you did send out a lot of documents in regards to this project. Yeah, yeah, I did. And I think there was a letter from the Wastewater Treatment Authority- Yeah... that they had enough capacity. Yeah.

Yeah, there's... They require... This is an exemption for a planning module because it has public sewer, so the DEP requires written certification from the municipal authority that they have capacity to convey, receive and convey the sewage- Right... and from the treatment, the Carlisle Borough Wastewater Treatment Facility, that they have capacity to convey and treat. And both of them have provided sign-offs. They also did a required D... What's it called? DNI- Oh, PNDI. Yeah, the PNDI report. It did hit three different species that could be possibly affected, but it was determined they're not affected. The monarch butterfly, a sedge that grows in the wet area, and-

And a bat...

Two, two bats, yeah.

Bats in the township.

It's a developed property, as you all know. Yeah. It's a sheet that everything within the curb line essentially is gonna be demolished and come back up with brand new, so- Yeah... impacts are very unlikely.

Yeah, I was amazed we had to do 21 pages on that, so I did not copy every page, but I did provide it to you in an email.

Yeah, there was six or eight pages that I read through, Fish and Game, DCNR, and- Yeah... it was kind of an interesting read. Yes. Yes. So has anybody public comment on this?

Should I go ahead?

So I move that regarding public sewage facility planning for the preliminary final land development plan for Sheetz Store 191 rebuild, we approve submission of the completed sewage facilities planning extension application to PA DEP, subject to their review and approval.

Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? Aye.

Aye.

Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thanks. Appreciate it. Excuse me.

Yeah.

All right, next on the agenda is discussion of possible motion on shooting range at Wertzville Road. So we have someone here representing the Turnpike Ramblers, I assume?

Sure.

Can I get your name please?

I'm Brian Goshert, a representative of the club. Thanks again

Could you spell your last name please?

G-O-S-H-E-R-T. Thank you.

Goshert. Goshert. Thank you.

A few months ago, a gentleman from Hold the Line Defense Solutions came to the club about adding a pistol range to the club, and this is free training for everybody, men, women, whatever. And we're a nonprofit, and so is he, so we didn't know the steps to go about. We used to have block shoots there, but it's over ten years ago. So we're talking about the same areas on the west end of the property. But we'd have- we would build a shooting berm so that there's no chance of anything getting out of it. We're talking a large area. It's thirty yards across the front.

The berms on the sides are thirty yards long, and they're twelve feet high. That way there's no chance of, you know, a stray handgun bullet leaving. And it goes into the woods at the back of our property. Right now the field is open. We don't have a lot of money, 'cause every time we raise money, we give it away, so we weren't sure exactly... We have club members that are gonna do all the work, if we can go ahead and do something like that.

And I know Mark Carpenter, our zoning officer, had to leave for some scheduled training, and you had sent him a request letter, and he had, of course, copied us on his response to you. What was your understanding of his response?

I'm not sure what the next step was. He said something about an eight hundred dollar fee to go for an application, and the officers of the club said they don't have eight hundred dollars to- To do that... to do the next step. So we weren't sure what we could do. You know, we're a nonprofit, and so is the people that want to do the training. We don't know if there's any possible way of minimizing that amount.

Yeah, I'm aware of this. Mr. Hockensmith, I think, is the one who- Yeah... who wants it, but not that I... I know his family quite well, and I think he does great work for the community, so I could see the value in the program. I'm not aware that, you know, are we allowed to waive application fees for nonprofits or not.

Yeah, that would be a question, I think, for Keith. So this may be continued discussion, try to get some legal advice. I was looking through the zoning ordinance, and the zoning ordinance specifically spelled out, like, public shooting ranges, where the classification here would probably be a private shooting range. So I'm not sure that the zoning ordinance addresses this. So that may be a question for Keith. I guess it wouldn't be any different than, like, anybody on their own property going out and shooting guns on their own property. Obviously, as long as they have the room set up.

I think there definitely needs to be more discussion about this and-

Yeah, I think Mark said it would probably have to, you know, maybe be a special exception, or maybe it has to go in front of the zoning hearing board. I think the township is willing to work with your organization to provide this benefit for the community at large. We just need some advice from our solicitor, who wasn't able to be here today, on how we should proceed with this. Again, can we waive fees? It's... They, again, still may have to go in front of the zoning hearing board, but again, I think the township, you know, does have a willingness to work with the organization in regards to this.

You know, I always think about, with shooting ranges, I'm, you know, within, I don't know, four miles of Fish and Game, and certainly I hear the shooting range there. It's, you know, quite far away, but I hear that. Have you discussed this with your neighbors at all?

No, we haven't. We were talking, it's mostly just gonna be on Saturday morning, would be the training. Okay. And, you know, whatever hours can be said, if it's, you know, 8:00 AM till 2:00 or something like that, you know, we don't have a problem. Hour restrictions as far as noise. You know, it's not gonna be going on in the evening, it's not gonna be going on in early morning. Yes. They'll have classroom in the clubhouse, and then when they're completed with the classroom, they'll go out and do a firearm familiarization at the range. So it's not gonna be like the state game land where they have a lot of hours to do stuff and it's seven days a week.

Uh-

Right. So this is something we'll have to consider, 'cause it could have a negative impact on the neighbors. Sure. And once you open the door, you know, what was supposed to be- Once a month... as, you know- Right... just Saturday morning, you know, becomes seven days a week, so- Understood... that's something that we'll also have to take into account. But public comment here, Representative Gleim?

Yeah. I just wanted to speak in support of Lauren Hockensmith's class, and also the Turnpike Ramblers. I actually, Lauren came to me, and also I knew the Turnpike Ramblers were facing shutdown because they weren't raising enough money. So I put the two together, thinking that maybe, you know, this was an opportunity for two nonprofits to be able to help each other stay open and stay viable. I do that a lot in my job. So I just wanna... It's especially popular amongst women, these classes. So it provides a really good service, in my opinion.

But I agree. We'll find out what the neighbors think about it, go through the proper process, but it doesn't fit into the current zoning and ordinances that we currently have because it is a nonprofit, and it's not an open to the public shooting range. So I'm just speaking in support of the two coming together and hopefully keeping both viable. So, thanks.

Thank you.

Doug Graham, Appaloosa Way. Reading through the zoning ordinances, I agree it's a good cause what they wanna do, but we have to, like you said, look at the neighbors around, and there's a lot of information in here that makes it difficult to do this. The number one thing that comes up in the outdoor shooting range is the lot has to be at least 10 acres, and I think you're needing five and a half acres from what I read. The lot's too small. Yeah. No shooting range to include, oh, that's a safety thing. You can't be within a quarter mile of any residential structure, and there's one within 500 feet, out on the road.

And all the ones north of here, and actually your garage is in the quarter mile radius that goes around here as well. And bullets go astray. Right. And I know that because I actually had to call the police one time on Mr. Goodhart-... when he was firing in the bank below his house down there, and I had bullets tumbling over my house on Holly Grove. So, and he was, and that's about a 40-foot rise that they were deflecting up over my house. And I'm very familiar with shooting. I've been doing it my whole life. I was a gunsmith. I shot long range competitive handguns.

So I know the potential that's there for stray bullets, regardless of how big your berms are. Some of the other things on here, you can't have a shooting range within 200 foot of any property line or street right of way line. Obviously, they can't, there's nowhere on their property you can stand and have 200 foot from a property line. It just doesn't math work out. But I think you just wanna take a hard look at your current zoning, and R1, like you said, it's an R1 zoning, which does not permit an outdoor shooting range. So I mean, those are things you need to take a hard look at as far as the neighbors are concerned.

Thank you.

... Gehr, Spring Road, Middlesex Township. I think we're getting this surrounded. First of all, obviously the intent is a solid, very commendable intent. I support that. But without question, this is not the right place for it, for many reasons that have already been stated, as well as many more. I'd like to just recap a number of them. I think the intent was somehow this is gonna keep the club open. I didn't hear any talk of revenue, so that's a misnomer. There's no relevancy. It's irrelevant. As well, this property is zoned R1, and in R1, this is a non-permitted use. Number two, there's many R1 areas that are comparable size and even meet the ten acres.

So are we gonna put shooting ranges, as described, all the way down Hollowbrook Road? I don't know why they would be any different. Safety, I agree with the comments made by Doug Graham. Pistols, probably most of them in this room have handled many firearms. Pistol's one of the more dangerous arms that there is from a personal safety and public safety standpoint, because they're all short barrel, they're held in the hand, and they easily can go off, especially by people that are being trained. And it doesn't matter how high your berm is, you know, this is all it takes.

Even when you fire, and the recoil and the refire, that bullet now is parting and it's traveling. We all know that. I appreciate the detailed specifications required for a shooting range, which meets none of them at all. I am disappointed in the assessment by the applicant, or whoever's recommending this, that, not to worry, there's woods behind me. So woods are now a natural backstop? Absolutely not. Woods are not a backstop. People are in those woods. They don't even own the woods. They own a small section. That is not a backstop. Any 12-year-old that has gone through a hunter safety class knows that the first rule before you pull the trigger is to know where your bullet potentially is gonna end.

Okay? Community fit, R1, there's a reason why that is not an approved use. I am sure the neighbors will not appreciate having this there, and it is a slippery slope as well. First of all, you know, pistols. Okay, well, now you're into semi-auto, semi-auto pistols. Now you're into long guns, semi-autos, thirty round clips. Now it's not just Saturday morning. By the way, what's wrong with a Saturday morning? Why does that have to be tolerated? As well, there are many, many... This is a strong area for arms. This area supports arms. This area supports First, Second Amendment. You have numerous high quality sporting clubs around where these classes could be held.

Why would we put it in such an area? You have the one you mentioned, Carlisle Fish and Game. That is an excellent club. They're around forever. Has very good facilities, and I'm sure one of these clubs would accommodate the user's intention. The second one is Gettysburg Sportsman's Club. There's many more. This is the wrong place. That's why we have zoning. As well, we're blessed in this township to have the state game lands, very high quality shooting areas that have everything with the appropriate backstops. Not to mention that in the long guns, you have the mountain with nothing in between. A couple other items I would mention would be, how many members are in the Turnpike Ramblers?

Of those members, how many actually live in Middlesex Township? So I know there are better areas. As well, the club brings no liability backup protection. Heaven forbid there actually be an accident as such, and you think it's safe the way that they intend to have it, there's a big difference between shotguns and projectiles. So if you're doing pistol or long gun, huge difference. Nobody's ever complained about the block shoots, even though they stopped ten years ago, as represented. But there is a big difference between a shotgun and now firing projectiles. Those are my comments to get started, but this should never even be considered, and I'd ask the applicant to withdraw and not pursue, and to talk with whoever intends to hold these classes to actually go work with the sporting clubs.

I'm sure they'll accommodate them. Thank you. Thank you.

I'll be quick. Just wanna make a comment. I am in a sporting good club, and I will wait. This gentleman has no idea what he's looking into. I know what I went through, through permits and insurance. Believe me, it's very expensive. Being a nonprofit, which I am, and the club I am, I make no money. I support this club myself because I want it for my family and my son. So I would suggest to this club, if they're a nonprofit, and they only have hundreds of thousands of dollars, there's no choice for them. They'll never afford this. Thank you.

All right. Well, thank you for coming. Yes, thank you. Good job. All right, next on the agenda, discussion, possible motion on the PMRS 2027 Minimum Municipal Obligation, the MMO, for the non-uniform and police pension plan.

Yes. Gentlemen, this is in your packet. It is the Minimum Municipal Obligation that we do every year. This would be for 2027. Calculations are based on an actuarial study, as well as an estimated guess for the remainder of the payroll for 2026. We do receive state funding towards this. For example, for this year, we received a little over $210,000. Right now we've got about 48,000 remaining of that 210. And so I just did the third quarter, and that'll also cover the fourth quarter. Anything in excess then gets sent back to PMRS to be applied towards the police state pension.

So, for example, we have to pay the state for the police by the end of this year. We've already made the payment. We recently received the state funding, so we're allowed to reimburse our general fund for that amount, which was a little over, I think, $121,000. So what is remaining of the 210 that we received, we can then apply towards the non-uniform pension to reimburse the general fund for any payments we've made towards that. Do you have any questions? Did I confuse you with what I said, or?

It's been pretty standard for the last couple years.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Since I've worked here, I know it has been. Is Barry still on that board? He is not. Okay. He's no longer on that board.

Okay. So these are numbers that are given to us- Right... from the actuarialist.

Right. Right.

Basically- That we're obligated to fund.

That's correct. The only thing I provide would be an estimate of what the next few months of payroll might be. So I provide those numbers, plug it into their worksheet calculation, and that's what determines, along with the previous actuarial study, that comes up with what the obligation would be to. Okay.

Does the... And the money comes from the state?

State. Yes, that's correct.

Does, in a 12-month period, does the money that come from the state cover our obligation 100% from the township?

Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. Plus with some leftover, then it goes back to the state to fund- Yes... the police pension. That's correct.

So it's really- Yes... just pass through, that we're putting back into the fund, and any leftover goes back to the state. Right. So this is not, I mean, it's taxpayer money obviously, because it comes from the state. But this is not a burden on the taxpayer of Middlesex Township in terms of township taxes.

That's correct.

Okay.

Yeah.

This is something we're obligated to do. Yes. So I'll make a motion

that we fund the PMRS 2027 Municipal, Minimum Municipal Obligation, the MMO, for the non-uniform and police pension plan, as outlined by the actuarialist.

Do I have a second? Second. All's in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Any staff comments?

Bud, Zach? That's held pretty steady, hasn't it? Yes. Yeah. This PMRS, over the years. Yes.

Yeah. So. I would mention I had some interest in the property at the Diamond Motel for redeveloping that for possibly a large service station convenience store, similar to a Sheetz or a Wawa or Royal Farms or-

Yeah.

Hmm. That's really good...

they're making some progress. Jerry has information about that, because I go by every day a couple times. Oh. What you got, brothers?

They have cleared all the debris off the property, cut all the... down, all the brush and everything. Okay. They've removed that. They have two containers there that have material for boarding up the windows, the doors, and where central air conditioning units stay at. And the agreement was that they do all windows and doors and openings lower than 10 feet. Mm-hmm. Which means the second story will not be done- Right... which is in the back.

Makes- And they started yesterday. What they did is they painted the plywood with primer- Right... and then they painted it to match the color of the existing building. And they're putting them on with special tamper-proof screws. Right. And they're supposed to be screwing them every eight inches around, so there's no way that they can pull them off with a pry bar or anything. And they should be finished in the next week or two doing that, because they have to cut each piece of plywood to specifications of whatever window it is or door. It looks good. But they're making the progress.

Jerry, didn't you say there was people in there when they started?

Yes, when they first started, they started running the chainsaws and stuff. And they had four people come out... carrying all their baggage and everything, vagrants that were in there. And then at 1:30 in the afternoon, I was down again to look, to give them some guidance, and here two more come out from the lower part, and they left. Down at the lower part? That lower part where the-

Down where the old Mariposa was.

Right, where the ballroom was. There were two of them come out of there. So we had seven vagrants living in there. Wow. Who knows for how long.

Well, I know this has been a long time, and I think we're finally seeing some progress. I wanna thank you, Jerry, for your commitment to this project. I know it's been a real slog, and we've involved a lot of people with the police and redevelopment authority, and trying to get the ownership nailed down was a real problem. And so I appreciate your efforts in helping to move this thing forward.

Thank you. And every time we get, you get it close, they'd sell the damn mortgage. That's right. And we had to start all over again. That's happened several times. Don't you have free time?

All right. I don't know if there's any other public-

You got any comments?

-comments or questions?

Zach, got anything?

I was just making a note that we are starting work on our budget for 2027. Starting to meet with the different departments on- Okay... getting ideas of things that are needed, so that is a process that's beginning. We'll start having some more formal discussions about that later. So.

And Ms. Darlington, before you go, I thank you, Mr. Manta, for reminding me about that. We did have our first meeting for the comprehensive plan steering committee. There's an awful lot to do. You know, I think it was a reasonably productive first meeting. The thing that I think is most disappointing is the lack of community involvement-

Yeah...

in completing the surveys, because I don't think we're gonna get where we need to be if we don't get community involvement. So there are paper copies of the survey there which people can take. If you're not computer literate, you can fill those out. I guess you can drop them off at the township. There's a link on the township website. Did you put it on the Facebook page?

I did not put it on the Facebook page.

If you put it on the Facebook page with a QR code, and people can take their smartphone. I did the survey myself.

You know, I didn't ask people. I don't know, Mr. Manta, did you do the survey yet? I did. Okay. Yes. Good. Helen? Yes, sir. Good. So, you know, it's a fairly easy, straightforward survey. It doesn't take a lot of time. There's a lot of spots for comments. It's gonna be very helpful, I think, for the steering committee to come up with a, you know, yeah, a compass for where we want the township to be. That then will allow us to redo our zoning ordinance to make changes that will reflect what the residents want in the township.

So please encourage your neighbors, friends. Mr. Beam, if you wanna take paper copies for your neighbors, please take those and drop them off for your neighbors here. We'd appreciate that. We really need this information. So anybody-

And just to throw out, we only have about sixty responses out of over seven thousand people. We'd like to have at least around seven hundred responses. Oh. So if you could help us.

Take some for your friends and neighbors. Don't be bashful, you know.

Pass them out. Yeah, that's a big conversation at the steering committee. We're gonna mail probably some. They're probably more like a postcard that has a QR code on it, and maybe just a note that, you know, you can get online, to actually pick up surveys here at the township. But we're gonna try to mail something, maybe out to all the township residents, to try to elicit some more responses.

Yeah. And Supervisor Geistwhite has to fill his out, too. He does work for us.

Is it in coloring book format?

Okay.

I got it on my desk.

Mrs. Darlington, go ahead.

Yeah. Wertzville Road. Thanks. Both my comments had to do with what you just said. So-... a thought just came to my mind, if we're only getting such a weak response. Are there community events where there could be somebody, I've even volunteered at certain events, to sit with paper copies, hand them out. I would just have to verify that the people are in the community. So I didn't know if maybe that was thought of as a way to solicit more engagement.

HRG.

Yes?

HRG was at the fall festival. Okay. They had a booth, and they had easels up to where participants could write on little Post-it notes what their thoughts were.

So they were very, as much engaged with the public as they could be at the festival. But yes, that has been, that was their first attempt. Okay. Maybe we could, maybe we could feed them hot dogs or give them out free hats or something. I don't know.

And HRG did float a lot of ideas yesterday about how we could improve engagement. Maybe we have an open house. We talked about sending out postcards with QR code in backpacks from the Middlesex Elementary School, if the school district would allow that. Yeah. So there's a number of ideas that we kicked around. So they said they normally keep the survey, you know, open for four to six weeks. Hopefully, we'll keep it open a lot longer than that, you know, through the end of the year if we have to. We just, it's not gonna be a valuable document if we don't have good public participation.

Okay. I'll give that some thought. And my other question, which also you answered, I wanted to know what's the timing of reviewing, I mean, it's such a process, it's like reviewing SOPs, but reviewing the zoning ordinances and what needs to be updated, and who's... I mean, we're a small community, a small government here. Who has the capacity to do all that?

Right. So, HRG is leading the charge as a paid consultant for putting together a comprehensive plan. They anticipate that may take up to 12 months. We'll have to have a public hearing on that for it to then be adopted. And then I'd like to very quickly start on looking particularly at our zoning map and trying to make those adjustments sooner than later. And that will have to go through the process that it went through when they were doing the zoning redo in- 2025... yeah, 2025. So a lot of it came through the planning commission.

I don't know if there was a, I think there was a steering committee for that as well- Yes... that Robynn Eppley was on. So there is a process that exists to get those things done, and I think we need to work on this ASAP. Because, as you know, when someone gets an application in before we change things, they're beholden, just like the solar farm- Mm-hmm... you know, was under the old ordinance because they had their application in, you know, before the new zoning ordinance. So they're beholden to the old zoning ordinance. So if anybody gets an application in before we make changes, they're beholden to the current zoning ordinance.

And I think there's a lot of things in there that need to change. I think that's been very obvious through, you know, the last nine months, that there's a lot of ways to improve- Mm-hmm... our zoning ordinance. Some of it's gonna be with, you know, construction and construction noise and hours and days of the week. And that's just a simple example of things that I think that we need to get a handle on. But a lot of it, I think, has to do with the zoning map that's over here and how things are zoned. Because you know there's a sketch plan for South Middlesex Road for about 200 acres of, you know, it's current farmland, owned by a developer who wants to put in, you know, 700, 800 homes, high-density housing.

So is there a reason or a limitation to the order of events? Do we have to have the comprehensive plan finalized before some of these more risky or vulnerable, let me say, ordinances- Yeah, and- Could they be looked at? I mean, maybe, I don't know, you named a few. Could they already be proactively updated and then rolled into complying with the comprehensive plan when that becomes finalized?

I think that's an excellent question. And you're always very thoughtful with your questions. And that's something I think we're gonna have to look into. A lot of it we'll have to discuss probably with county planning department. You know, usually when you have a zoning change, oftentimes it's supposed to be reflective of your comprehensive plan. So that's something that I think we're gonna have to look into. As you said, if there's vulnerable things within the township that should be looked at sooner than later, you know, those are certainly, I think it's a good idea and things we'll have to discuss.

Again, have to discuss with Mark, with our solicitor, with county planning, you know, with the whole board of supervisors, as to, you know, the order at which these things can be done. I don't wanna, you know, rush into making permanent changes without thoughtful review either.

True, yes. I'm just, I'm just, you know, project management, I get that the comprehensive plan, that's kind of the st- the gold standard, but in the meantime we have these holes, you know? So I'm just thinking on my feet here, standing here. Yeah. So I'm just wondering if that would be something that might be worthwhile considering. I know it's extra work, but in the long run it might be worth the effort.

Yeah. I appreciate the idea,... Okay.

Thanks.

Thank you.

John Manta. Do, with the group, can't we just hit the brakes and just say, "We're gonna suspend accepting applications for X, Y, and Z until the comprehensive plan is done, until we've had a chance to redraw the zoning map"? What's the stoplight from just saying, "Not accepting applications"?

I think that's against the law.

I don't think it is. Yeah, there was a-... Yeah. And- Of course, a good idea, but-

Yeah. I mean, there's got... We have to have some recourse. We're in the process of redoing it, so someone could easily take advantage of us in the meantime and say, "Hey, wait. Here's my application, and it's for X, Y, and Z." Right. And then by the time we get around, four months is a long time. Until we get around to redoing that map and get our comprehensive plan in order, a whole lot of things bad could happen.

Right. There... And of course, people have applications in now. We, you can't take those away.

That's my point, you see? Right. They're gonna put in applications now while we're in a position and we're trying to do the best thing for the township, and they're sneaking applications in. Can't we just, I don't know, if we accept their application, I understand- Right... that you have to go forward. You don't have a choice. The planning commission has to do their due diligence. You guys have to do yours. And, but there has to be a mechanism that will allow us to pause- To take a breath and allow us to do our job.

Right. And that's something I think, there's one tool called a curative amendment, and I'm not sure if we can use that or not. I think that has to be a little more specific. We need-

That's a, a developer typically does that.

Right.

If you're not providing for something in the township.

Well, and townships do it as well. I was on a meeting with PSATS this week. It was municipalities between 5,000 and 10,000 people. Mm-hmm. And supervisors would get together and, you know, they'll talk about the issues that are going on. And there was a township, I think it was outside Philadelphia, that was using a curative amendment. There was some thought amongst the PSATS staff that that was probably not legal, it was not gonna hold up. But, you know, there are certainly things that we can look at, and I think that's something we'll have to discuss with our solicitor.

I'll discuss with him upon his return, send him an email and, you know, what's our legal options. As we know, we went back and forth about the motion that I made in February to put a pause on data centers.

Right.

You know, whether or not that would actually hold up to a legal challenge is, I'm not sure. So-

But if you don't try, we'll never know.

Well, that's why I made that motion.

And, but you reversed it.

No, I did not reverse it. The motion-

Well, you stated-

Again, I'm not gonna get into this again, but the motion was very clear that it's a pause on further data center development, that-

It was not to change the zoning ordinance- Right, right...

to allow the data centers. It's a pause on further data center development until we can look at what the township wants and change our ordinance in accordance with the wishes of the township as a whole.

Well-

No, I'm just listening to what you're saying, Bill, and I... You did change it. You changed your intent on the, at the April 28th meeting here, at the workshop meeting, where you now allowed it to be opened up to solar. So I don't understand what we're, you know, we're talking about how to put a pause on things. You had a pause in February, and then you came back, you know, and now you're saying, "Oh, no, I didn't mean that. That wasn't my intention. You know, we're gonna allow solar panels." So you did reverse it.

So you don't tell me what the intent is in my brain.

Well, I know, but the-

I... No, no, no. Hold on. Let me talk.

Go ahead.

I know what my intent was when I made that motion. I sat here every meeting in 2025. There was very few people in the room. Jim Gehr was here. He spoke out against the zoning ordinance. People spoke out about the data center overlay. Jim Gehr was here. Mr. Beam was here. He spoke out against it. I was at all those meetings, and it was clear to me that there was concerns amongst the residents that they did not want data centers to proceed. So I made that motion that put a pause on further data center development until we can understand what this situation entails.

It was not to stop all zoning changes. I did not ask for the county to come in. The county has come in and requested a change in zoning to allow principal solar energy systems in institutional. That's their right. We have to listen to them. I didn't ask them to come in. They applied, and we have to listen to them in a public meeting.

Well, we are gonna listen to them.

They came to us.

Exactly. We are gonna listen. My question, I just question the change from February, because everybody else, other than you, thought what happened in February meant one thing. And then in August, you come back and say, "No, that's not what was meant." And there really wasn't a lot of disc- I mean, the planning commission got up here and tried to defend what they heard in February, and you just kept saying, "Well, that wasn't my intent." And then you made a motion, and Don seconded, and all of a sudden it changed. So that's my difficulty in understanding how... There wasn't much of a discussion. I mean, Robynn clearly outlined everything that happened, and yet you still went and made a motion, and seconded, and boom.

Now solar panels are allowed in, are gonna be allowed in all of the institutional areas. So that's, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Yeah, the motion-

And it doesn't, it doesn't make any sense to me...

We did not make a motion to approve solar in institutional. That's coming in front of a public hearing, and then the board will decide at that time whether they change the zoning to allow for that. That motion was simply to clarify the intent. I know my intent of what I said in February. In my mind, it was crystal clear. Apparently, it wasn't clear to other people, and maybe that was a fault of my language, which I made a clarifying motion to clarify what my intent was in February.

So we're allowed to pause on any more data centers. We're allowed to do that, but we're not allowed to do it with solar panels?

Well, it's an open public hearing.

No, I'm just asking. You're... I'm not making myself clear. In February, you put a pause. You said, "We're not gonna look at any other data center stuff until we get better understanding of it." Yeah. And we thought it was also for solar panels, the rest of us did. We thought it was for, you know, everything. And, you know, you're okay with doing it for data center, but you're not okay with solar panels? I just don't understand why it was okay. Am I making myself clear?

Well, we had a, someone came today who presented for solar. A family sold their land, knew it was gonna be a solar field, and Mr. Beatty's building a new house right next to a solar field. So we approved that. That was under the old zoning ordinance. People are putting solar on their roofs. You know, it's not... The motion had nothing to do with solar. The motion had only to deal with data centers and not allowing further data centers.

I think it had to do with the fact that we don't have a comprehensive plan done yet. We haven't had one done for years, so we're trying to slow things down so we can find out what we want as a community to be our comprehensive plan. And again, as the gentleman over there just said, you know, we're trying to slow it down to get a pause on things, and I'm just disappointed that the solar panels aren't part of that pause.

Thank you. All right. So have they made already application to put that solar field in?

No.

They-

No. They can't put an application in because the use is not permitted at this point. Right. Let's keep it that way. Okay. Meeting adjourned. We go into executive session.

Executive session. Lock our door. Yeah.