Monday, September 14, 2026

Joining us later. So I'll get the meeting started this evening. So let's all start by rising. And let's all repeat the Pledge of Allegiance together.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation

under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Now, if there are any residents or taxpayers here this evening who would like to make a comment on something that is not on the agenda this evening, please, now is the time. Go to the podium, say your name and your address, and state your case.

Yes. My name is Michelle Skurzynski. I live in the township. I was wondering, the community survey that is on the website for the comprehensive plan, is there any way that could be printed out for people who don't have access to the internet or are not able to get on to do that?

Zach, I guess that would be your question. Yeah, we can, we can think about that. We'll have... Maybe we can make copies to have here at the township office at the window for people to-

Okay. But you don't have any, like, at this time to, like, take with me and- I

don't, no.

Okay.

But if you wanna hang around maybe after the meeting, I can print some off quickly.

I know there's a few people where I live who don't have access and would like to be involved. Okay. All right. Thank you.

Yeah.

Is this a comment now or what? Wait a minute. Hold on.

Hi. Beth Legore. I live in the township also. Just as a follow-up to that, if you're going to do that, you should probably put something on the website saying that paper copies are available and how people would turn those things in, so it can be clear with that communication on that. Thanks.

No other comments?

Yeah, it's easy today.

Yeah.

All right, then we'll move on to discussion and possible actions on the draft minutes from August 24th, 2026.

Okay, where's my glasses? Here we go. Questions, concerns? We received a copy of the draft meeting minutes on Friday afternoon through email, and I opened my email and started reviewing the document. It was significantly different and missing a lot of crucial information that was discussed at the meeting. I went so far as to watch the video that the PAX-1 folks placed on YouTube. I ran it against the written document, the paper document. And I put together... I captured what was missing, which added, well, just about doubled the amount of the minutes that I have.

And I emailed sort of a copy that I put together that was highlighted of everything that was new to the minutes. So going forward, I think we have to... there has to be some kind of communication with the vendor that's doing the transcription, because they're not capturing. Really, what they provided us did not reflect in any way, shape, or form the meeting that actually took place.

People were misquoted. People were said to have made statements that actually did not say anything at all during that meeting. It was just... It was a very poor product from a vendor, and I want to make sure that the township is getting what they're paying for. I would not recommend that these meeting or that these minutes be approved as they were presented. Mm-hmm. Good.

I thought that was very well articulated and said and truthful. All the minutes that I reviewed in the last nine months, whether they be some longer than they need to be or shorter, they at least represented what happened at the meeting. I don't know how this got drafted, but not even close to being what happened in the meeting. And, very disappointing. Kelley drafted an enhanced update on the minutes, correcting. I've read it. I think the other members had a chance to read it. I think that's representative of what happened at the meeting.

Is there a second?

I second.

So vote. I second the motion. Any other votes?

I, uh, Zach?

Zach. Yeah. I assume you oversee these minutes from DocuScript?

She sends a draft to me, and then I forward it on to you guy- I just... I read down through it quickly. I caught a couple things. I think Wes Beard was actually quoted twice in there, and I don't think it was Wes Beard at all.

No, it was Mark

Carpenter. Well, I think one was Bud Grove. I think I corrected that one. The other one I left.

No, Bud did not speak at the meeting.

There was also one that

uh- He is listed in there as Bud saying whatever- Okay... it's quoted, but Bud did not speak at that meeting. There was also one that- So that's inaccurate...

that said I made a, I made a comment. It was actually Mark that made the comment- Yes... as

well. Yes. So I guess, a question that I have for you is, how does DocuScript determine what they're going to include and what they're going to omit in our minutes?

So she transcribed, right now there's a recording on, so she'll transcribe that recording, and then she- Data... goes down through and tries to hit the high points. I know public comment's been something that has been critical here in the last several meetings, and she tries to include as much of that public comment as possible. Obviously she's not here, and she's just listening to a transcription or a recording. She's trying to pick out voices of people she doesn't know, so that's kind of where I go down through, and I was trying to pick some of that out. I did not have access to the recording at that point.

I was just trying to go off my memory, my notes that I had.

So then with the contract that you have with DocuScript, do we have an assigned transcriptionist, or is this something that just goes into a queue and whomever picks it up and we have someone different that transcribes these notes? No, it's typically the same person every time. 'Cause it doesn't seem that way. It has been.

Yeah. For clarity and sway of action, I recommend instead- We can redraft these minutes. Well, I don't think, I think they have been redrafted to the Planning Commission's satisfaction, and I think that, uh, Kelley

if you would forward your

copy to Zach and get it out to the Planning Commission, maybe we can review. And then I think that's a set of minutes that we can consider approving with editing.

And- Can I say something before, when y'all, before y'all vote on what you're doing about that?

Go ahead.

I just wanna say that what we say at this point is important, even earlier, because when we go to court, what we say is referenced many times. If we have to prove something, and if that's not in there, you know, I might have it written down, and hopefully they believe that if I swear and say whatever. But I'm finding that in minutes, people's comments aren't there, and it's critical. They're missing because- They're just- Why aren't they just here? Agree. Thanks.

One other thing, Zach, that I noticed with the most recent minutes, discussions that actually were taking place within the Planning Commission members and employees of Middlesex Township, some of those comments ended up being under the public comment section. They had no place being in there under public comment because they actually were part of our actual meeting discussing our agenda. It was before public comment was even opened up to the residents. Okay. So they, so.

We had a- Ah... discussion about minutes, obviously, in the past getting far too detailed and steering away from what a true board minute meeting should look like when you're talking about- Right... topics and things of that nature. I just caution us not to get too deep into the weeds on details and stick to the high points as well. Yeah. And I do agree that- And in your report-

Details are important

... Doug, I would say that the key pieces that were missing were pieces in support why the Planning Commission made the recommendation that they did to deny- Mm-hmm... approval for what was presented to us. Mm-hmm. No, I agree. That was- So what the pieces that were admitted supported why we ca- how we arrived at that decision.

Which is what the supervisors will be reading- Mm-hmm.

Exactly... if they weren't present. But we just, like we've been warned before, don't make this into a transcript. We agree. Well, we agree. We agree 100%.

We agree, but you have to have what, the content, what supports- And

that was a-

... your decisions... that was a difficult decision we were stuck on there.

Yes, it was.

Yeah. Yes. I just wanna make one comment. Excuse me. I think it's obvious to all of us that the current method of writing minutes as it's been the last few months, is completely unacceptable. Yes. And we're getting shoddy work. Whether we need to get a new vendor to do this, hire somebody to come in here and sit with us and record it- Email them... I don't know, but this is a discussion I think we need to have about how we're going to continue, because this is important information.

Mm-hmm.

This is an official government body. Yeah. And we can't have a haphazard recording.

Amen.

Now, I heard today that we have this all on tape someplace, and I don't know how long it's gonna last.

Okay.

That's right. Kelley told me that information. Well, I think it's gone. And I guess if push came to shove in five years, if that's preserved, not that likely it is- That's it. I think- We've recorded six... but I just, I think we need to do something, and maybe we need to have a separate topic in a meeting. You know, what can we do, and what will we recommend to the supervisors that they do for us to provide correct, adequate and correct minutes?

Agreed.

So we're gonna send these back to Zach for review- Yes... and further approval at the next meeting. Yes. So we'll send these back.

We're sending to Kelley. Kelley. And then Kelley will send it out. Kel--

Yeah. And after Kelley, she can re-review it after Zach does-

Yes

... so they can put their heads together and we can vote on it then.

That's right.

Okay.

Looks like you guys are all here.

First subject is the phase 1C, TPF 26-16, discussion and possible recommendation for final land development plan for phase 1C. Now, you guys had said you're not seeking approval on anything tonight? Right. No, no recommended decision tonight. Okay. This is just for presentation purposes only.

Okay. So we will present the final land development plan for 1C, which is the construction laydown area. We'll go through the renderings and then the viewsheds, and then we'll walk through the waivers. And then we'll answer any questions you have. And the second item on the agenda is the final land development plan for campus II. We'll go through the site plan, the landscaping, renderings, viewsheds- Which you have seen... correct. And then we'll go through the waivers for that, and then we'll answer any further questions. So we'll start with final land development plan for 1C.

That's fine. Uh, boys.

All right. Good evening. Good evening. So just starting off, there is really nothing that will be presented from our side that has changed from preliminary to final, with the exception of the location of water tanks on campus-

Can we get it a little louder, Justin? Is the microphone on?

Yeah.

Sorry about that.

Yep.

So materially, plans will look identical to what was approved prior. We will go through the waivers. Those also will look very similar. I don't think there's any waivers in that that haven't been approved as part of a kind of prior phase or preliminary phase. The only other change tonight is the second half of the Country Club Road improvements, on the frontage between 1C and campus III, so the southern half, are part of the 1C final land development plan. So we'll go through those a little bit just to kind of demonstrate what we're doing there. Again, the first half of Country Club Road was approved as part of final 1A, and now we're extending those improvements along the remainder frontage of the project.

So skipping ahead, this should be a new slide to most of us. This is the phasing plan. Again, we're talking about II, which is the dark blue, and 1C, which is the yellow. And the pink line between III and 1C is Country Club Road, and that's the approved section from the southern property line, just through the curve to kind of the main entrance of the project. So this is 1C. It is a construction pad area. Laydown-- Construction laydown's a little misleading here. It's actually for job trailers. That is the current and permitted zoning use for it.

And again, this is a temporary condition, albeit it may be there for several years, during the construction of the project. But this area will get restored, per the direction and request of both boards, after the project is completed. So it will be leveled off with stormwater collection during construction. It'll be then topsoiled and kind of recontoured at the end of the project and reseeded and kind of left back to more natural conditions. Okay. Sure. On the residential southern border, again, there's a green highlight. There's landscaping, fencing and some berming along there.

On the western border, there's a berm along Country Club Road, except for the entrance drive that comes in kind of in the middle of the project site there.

So

So again, this is kind of a conceptual rendering from that same vantage point. You know, again, just showing some of the topography, how the pad sits there. There'll be some additional landscaping, as I said, on the west and the south side. And it really will just be a stone pad for a while. And again, the purpose of this is parking for employees as well as job trailers, very similar to what's currently on the project site along Country Club Road. And again, fencing with screening on the property lines, very similar to what you see driving down Country Club Road today.

Justin

you said that this is still gonna be parking, correct? It's just like a gravel lot.

It is. It is pervious. For permitting, we're required to assume it's impervious. Okay. So it will be gravel, but we need to accommodate any runoff that would come from that.

And I think I remember from before when you said when the project is finished, the only thing that remains would be the berm with plantings along the road? That is correct. As a, like a thing of-

So all the MRC cells and everyone would be gone at that point? Yes. Okay. Yeah.

Okay. So again, I just wanted to highlight here, the yellow is the extent of Country Club Road that is approved as part of this plan. Further to the east, that was approved as part of 1A. So what we will be doing, I'll get into the detail here. The requirement is to improve both sides of Country Club Road along our frontage. So since we front both sides, we are proposing... It's a little hard to see here, but we are proposing really a full depth reconstruction of the roadway at the end of the project. So the current roadway width is about 10, some 11 foot travel lane, so it's fairly narrow. And as we witnessed here a couple months ago, the subgrade is somewhat unstable. It was paved over for many years. So we're gonna be putting in two 12-foot lanes, which are standard for a, well, it's really a PennDOT or a local road standard, as well as four-foot shoulders on each side. The current road doesn't have any shoulder at all, so that'll improve the road from a safety standpoint. And then it'll also be graded out fully to the right of way. So what this will look like kind of visually is an enhanced road section, a new road section, grading further out to the left and to the right, as... and then the berms that front each of phase three and 1C with the landscaping. So again, right now as you travel up the road, there's slopes kind of really right on the edge of the road on the right side. So those will be pushed back to kind of open things up from a view and safety perspective. Hey, excuse me. For orientation purposes, 1C is to the right of this road? That is correct, yes.

Okay.

Yeah. We're

north now. Another clarification. Per our previous conversations, any roadway improvements, widening will be pulled from the developer's side and not the other homeowners' side. Correct. Of the roadway? I believe we talked about that. Yes. Nothing will be removed from the current lot owners.

Correct. Yeah. So for 1A, we pulled the improvements towards the campus- Mm-hmm... to accommodate the lanes and the shoulder on one side. Here since the develop- The applicant... the applicant owns on both sides, you know, we're improving both frontages on both sides. Thank you. Correct. So with 1C, any other questions on- I do, Justin. Go for that. Could you go back to that

slide where that impervious lot was gonna be for whatever? My question is, where's the electricity, water, and sewer coming from or going to? If there's office space there, shouldn't there be something on it that designates or identifies sewer, water, and power?

Yeah, so the drop trailers will have a temporary drop from PPL or... Yeah, they would have a temporary drop from PPL along that frontage. Water and sewer actually is not currently planned for there. So, you know, there is water and sewer in the street. And- But is it your intent then to hook into the street sewer and water supply?

I will have to actually get back to you. That has not come up in our discussions. Thank you.

Are you currently hooked to water and sewer in your existing offices? I believe we are, yes. Yeah.

I don't think it's a requirement, but we certainly are down there because it's easy to access, so. They are? Yeah.

So from a... Go ahead.

You had the picture there of the travel lane as it goes past 1C in phase three. Is that as far as you're developing the road right now, just up to the top of the hill, or are you going all the way out to Carlisle Pike at this time? Just to the top of the hill currently.

And then the final will be end to end?

That is correct. When the project is done-

Done... the last building is built-

We can't hear you...

oh, I'm sorry. When the project is finished and the last building is built, occupied. We can't- Country Club Road will be-

Still can't hear you.

The mic on there.

Certainly not the way I put it in front of my face. There you go. At that time. You have to say their names. At that time- At that time... we, the complete Country Club Road will be rebuilt from subgrade. New road.

The same size? Same size for residents. Twelve, twelve and four each?

Both sides will be rebuilt. Not taken from the resident side, correct? No, within the existing right of way.

All right. So the next topic- Hold on.

Hold on a minute. So- Before you go on. Do you folks up here have any questions first?

No, we're not finished with residents. Yeah, we still didn't-

Yeah.

Go ahead. Oh, I can wait, though. I just wanted to clarify about the road, because- Yeah... so, do I need to wait? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. So if you're not taking it from residents one side or the other, how is that improvement taking place, right, for the patch that goes closer up to the main road, 11 and 15, because you have the country club on one side, and you have residents on the other side. So then how is that road being widened and not taking away from any particular resident's property? Justin

do you want to answer that? So currently, there is no requirement to widen. We will do and enhance as much as we can within the current right of way. So we will rebuild the current road. Right. So it'll be a new road, and as much as we can widen within the current right of way, we will include that. But there are no plans to take additional right of way or include beyond that.

So, and please, if I'm wrong, correct me, but I had thought I had heard that there was going to be a right turn lane put in there where the golf course was out into the main road. Is that not going to happen?

That is correct, yes. That will happen. Yes. At the very end.

At the very end. So then you're going to take property from the country club to do that? No. Because there's no way to put a third lane in there.

No, the third lane- No, no... is on the pike, so SR 11, onto Country Club Road. Oh, I see. Yeah, there's existing PennDOT right there. In front of the hotel-

Yes... turning onto it. Okay. Yes. Thank you for the clarification. Because I think a lot of us were confused on that particular aspect of it. So I appreciate that.

So- Oh, hold other questions- Yes... until we get Steve back then. Oh

absolutely. Strat, is this on? You go ahead.

Continue on now.

Thank you. So the next topic is waivers for 1C. So again, I'm going to go through the list. HRG has reviewed, and we are currently addressing some comments within that. But I'll just introduce the waivers. Again, most of these, if not all of these, we have talked about before. The first is, the first and second are plan scale and map scale, so Section 501.A.2 and Section 501.A.6. Again, those are waivers that have been requested and approved on each plan to date. The next one is Section 703.B.10 and Section 707.A.1. And these might be slightly different than ones in HRG's letter, so I apologize.

We are working on a couple of updates and corrections. This is to defer curb and sidewalk along Country Club Road. So there's going to be a note added to the plan which would allow the township to request or require sidewalks to be installed in the future. Again, same provision that's been on most other phases that have frontage on Country Club Road. We then move into the EIA section, Section 718.D.3.a and Section 718.D.4. Again, a plan scale modification for some of the report maps that are included within that. We then move into stormwater management, so Section 303.J.3, detention basin side slopes.

That's a modification to go from 3:1 side slopes to, or sorry, 4:1 side slopes to a 3:1 side slope. Again, the basins that we talked about surrounding the laydown pad there. Section 303.H.17 and H.18 relates to dewatering. That's a 72-hour dewatering time, instead of the 48 hours per ordinance. Again, requested prior. We then move into the last stormwater, which is Section 303.B.2, which is a modification from infiltration. Again, these are MRC stormwater basins based on the perk testing and the soil testing conducted on the site. And then the last three, which are comments in HRG's letter, I will note that these were also approved as part of preliminary 1A, when we first started talking about Country Club Road.

So there's a couple modifications as part of that as we were planning the roadway improvements and kind of getting on the same page with that. So the first one will be Section 703.C.1 and Table 703.1, regarding street width. The requirement is there to, you know, bring any street to a collector road standard, which would require a 36-foot-wide cartway and four-foot shoulders. That's a lot of pavement. I think we have worked before to agree that traditional 12-foot-wide lanes with four-foot shoulders is the appropriate design for this roadway. Next we have Section 703.H.2, a modification for street horizontal curve radii.

The current curve, say, where the stone house is, so the curve in Country Club Road there is about 230 foot of radius. The road standard is slightly higher than that. So the current road in itself is substandard to meet the collector road or collector street requirements. So again- Sure... we're requesting a modification to- Yeah... meet or match the current curve that's there. Our justification for that is we think by increasing the curve, we would actually be increasing speed on the roadway, allowing motorists to go faster through that section of Country Club Road.

So- And

with bigger equipment.

So we think that that certainly is, you know, is a safety requirement that we feel, or we would request the relief to maintain the current design roadway in that section. Mm-hmm. And again, that was one of the preliminary waivers that was granted a long time ago at this point. And then Section 703.M.2 is a design for kind of grading within the street right of way. So as I mentioned on the clip, we are gonna grade the right of way out to two-foot past the right of way line. So it's gonna kind of widen out the flat area on either side of Country Club Road.

The provision requires that that grading slope back towards the roadway. We are simply asking to slope this away from the roadway, to allow drainage to go away from the pavement and really, you know, help the longevity of the pavement structure itself. So that concludes the waivers that we anticipate. Again, we are working to clean them up formally. We'll get them resubmitted as part of the next, and then, yeah, no actions requested tonight. That would be deferred till next month.

Before we move that, excuse me, abroad. The third waiver, the third waiver has no justification.

Which one are you... Which one is that?

We're requesting a modification to be granted from the township. Well, it's- Uh... regarding Section 718.D.3.a, 718-

D.4? Yeah. We'll get that corrected. So it is in our waiver request letter, but I see that the plan is deficient.

Now, I'll go down to the last one, infiltration of stormwater. I think this, shamefully, we didn't find, but there's some noticeable errors in there. Okay. If you proofread it just from the standpoint of sentences that make sense, I think you'll come up wanting. Yeah. On the fourth line, "It has been designed and included," A-M, not A-N-D, "and included to the maximum extent practical." And then in the next, well, really the second from the last full line, "Infiltrate some small amount of water while, but the majority"

Yeah, we'll get it cleaned up. Yeah, we'll proof that.

I'm embarrassed that this went on file with previous ones. I hope you are, too.

We'll clean it up, Larry. Thank you.

Okay.

I have a question. The environmental assessment for 1C, I believe it was, was 866 pages long.

Mm-hmm.

Is... and is a separate... How do I ask this? Does every phase have its own individual environmental assessment impact document?

It does not.

Okay, so it's just like one encompasses everything.

Yeah. We have been providing... So if there are updates, so for... We provided, it was approved as part of 1B. I think there were some minor updates for campus II based on some changes and things. I believe we provided kind of a cover letter just letting HRG know what the updates were or what was included. But it is the same document for the project.

All right. All right, thank you.

Yes.

Yeah, let me see, I see what he's just saying.

You talked about back on the, you had talked about the street widths. Mm-hmm. 12 foot for each lane. Correct. Now, this is for going in and out of your storage area on top of the hill. Is that what you're talking about?

Well, no. I was saying that Country Club Road, like the actual road itself, will be 24-foot wide with four-foot shoulders on each side of Country Club Road.

Okay. So you're talking about the road, not your entrance? Correct. Okay, good.

Any further questions? Otherwise, we'll go on to campus two. So campus two, again, back to the old phasing plan. Campus two is the dark blue, on the top or the middle left there. This is just a new visual of campus two. What you'll see here is there's a building in the top right corner, and that's campus one. The blue area in the bottom center is the current construction PPL, was current PPL laydown. That's where the job trailers are, the current parking lot for construction workers- Yeah, it sucks... and some cable laydown-... that PPL has there currently. So that, just to give you some context. The line kind of bisecting the property on the left is the old farm lane, and the house and barn that was on this parcel was really in the top corner there. The layout or the plan for this phase again is consistent with what was part of the preliminary plan. Five buildings, with stormwater surrounding the entrance and security in the front, as you kind of enter the campus. The change, which you may note if you compare the plans, is the tank sequence, or sorry, the tank pad area is shifted now. It used to be in that kind of front right corner to the right of the security entrance. It is now kind of tucked around and on the upper side of the first two buildings there. So there's a small water building in that corner, and then six inbound water storage buildings, two outbound water storage, or sorry, tanks. Six inbound water storage tanks, two outbound water storage tanks, and then two fire suppression tanks. So very similar to campus one. Actually identical to campus one from a design and engineering standpoint. And the reason for doing this was twofold. One, it was, you know, our team didn't like that you come in the entrance and you would see those tanks. They pushed us to accommodate them up in that corner. It helps, you know, screen them from the public, kind of wraps them into campus. We can get more landscaping out front. Also they were slightly visible from the Appalachian Trail, so again, tucking them back around and, we think it's just a better design overall.

Can you scroll-

With your cursor, scroll those tanks up. Yeah. Right. So you can see that in our PDF, I'm sure.

There you go.

So yeah, so the tanks again are right in this area. Before they were actually out here on this corner. So this corner now will be the, so reforestation. So it's gonna be heavily planted, you know, right in this location to provide a very nice screen. Again. Yeah, I jumped ahead too quickly. So same thing. You can kind of see those tanks over here. The building layout, and then this is that, you know, heavily landscaped area. Just it's one thing you'll see from Country Club Road as you look at the main entrance.

So again, was just trying to make that more of a campus feel looking at the entrance rather than the utility buildings. This I think was presented in a prior meeting as well. This is campus two, kind of a conceptual rendering. Again, talk about those tanks. This highlighted green here will... It doesn't have the trees in there yet, but we're getting those updated into the model here. But this kind of just shows how campus two fits in amongst, you know, the other two campuses there.

I guess, I'm sure you've probably done a lot of calculating on this, but what's our daily allowable output to the municipality for it? Three hundred. Three hundred. Two hundred and seventy-three thousand. Is that-- You know, with all three campuses running and just two wastewater tanks at each, are you gonna be able to discharge-... that without overfilling the tanks? Yes.

Okay. Yeah. American

has to come more water.

Yeah. It's a big engineering equation. Yeah. But yes, that is correct. So last couple slides here. Again, these are the same buildings that were on campus one. So the balance of buildings on campus one are now all buildings on campus two or this prototype. And I think we've seen this one before, but this is kind of the front facade of those structures.

I have a question here. I'll get back to the section I was talking about before that needs to be rewritten. But the essence of that says that this doesn't comply with any ordinance, but it's okay anyway. The state says maybe it's all right. Is... Bud, do you agree with this? And is this- Yes. This-

I believe it's that stormwater management plan

... stormwater management plan.

Oh, yeah. MRC, with the MRC.

Yes.

Instead of... Yeah, absolutely. This is DEP's latest and greatest alternative to infiltration.

MRCs do infiltrate a little bit. And, they renovate water before it is discharged now out to the creek. They are treated. Stormwater is treated before it goes into the MRC for water quality. So absolutely, without doubt, and our ordinance does allow it a waiver.

It does?

Okay, I understand. Now, I think you've told me this before, what's an MRC? Managed release rate. Manage what? Managed release rate concept. Okay. Although, it's actually more than a concept anymore.

Well, actually, we have one near us. If you go up Foxhanna Drive, they go in the state back in there, they put a pond up front. Yes. The water would not go anywhere. They have now made that an MRC cell, a small cell, and there's no longer water laying there. So yeah, go up Foxhanna, it'll be on the right-hand side as you're going out. I bet it turns green in the summer. I don't know. There's no water in it, so it'll-

Oh, oh.

It would've been useful before that.

Okay. Thank you.

All right. So the last topic here again is waivers. So I'm just gonna skip ahead to campus two. And these are identical to everything we've talked about or approved in the past. Section 501.A.2 and Section 501.A.6, plan scale and map scale modifications for presentation purposes. Section 703.B.10 and Section 707.A.1, curb and sidewalk along both PA Data Drive and Country Club Road. Again, the deferral note on the plan to allow those, or provide those if requested by the township in the future. Section 703.I.4, this is a depressed driveway curb. This is along PA Data Drive and the entrance into the campus, to waive the requirement for curb way across that driveway entrance.

And then next we have Section 718.D.3.a and Section 718.D.4, the EIA plan scale modification request for the exhibits within that. And last but not least, the three stormwater waivers, Section 303.J.3, detention basin side slopes, so allowing three to one instead of four to one. Section 303.H.17 and H.18 gets to the dewatering requirement, within 72 hours instead of 48. And last is what Larry was just speaking of, Section 303.B.2, infiltration of stormwater, to allow the MRC stormwater concept in place of infiltration where appropriate. And

you all agree with that one also?

Yes. So I believe that concludes our presentation. If there's any other questions. I have a question. Margaret said-

I have a question.

Well, these two have had the floor.

Sorry.

Do you guys have any further questions about the storm water process? Yeah. Yes. Yes. Please. Well, unless you have a question.

I do. Do you?

No.

And, my name is Alyssa- Wait a minute, we'll let- Oh, I'm sorry. We'll get- One of the documents that was included in what was transmitted to us through the share file was a document known as the opinion of probable cost, and this kind of caught my attention. How accurate do these estimates tend to be, do you find?

So we prepare the estimate. The township engineer then reviews the estimate and typically adds a considerable amount to it, is the way the process works- Mm-hmm... to ensure that they feel the township is protected. And then what is provided as funds or escrow is 110% of that. So there's a safety factor built in by the township review as well as the 110%. But I'll defer to Bud if there's any other-

Just a good question. Design engineers are not contractors. We at the township are not contractors. We're not bidding on a project, so it's a non-competitive estimate. It's better than an order of magnitude estimate. We add the 10% on top of that, plus we have our own database that we use that is slightly buffered for, be- lack of a better way of saying it. Generally, we don't get too much pushback on some of the higher unit costs. It's a unit cost estimate. Mm-hmm. So we estimate not only the price, but the number of units that go into the product. In other words, the number of square yards of pavement and so on and so forth.

We also have the right every year to upgrade that by 10%. So, and there's also a proviso in the MDA that if for some reason the project falls to the township to actually enforce or take the money and build the road, if there is not enough, we have legal authority to go after and get the rest.

I was just curious because the document lays out so many loads of aggregate, so many this- Yeah... so many of that. It's all broken out by any kind of construction material- Yeah... you know, the truckloads of... And I know when truck drivers load, they're given a ticket. Yeah. Who collects those tickets? I'm just curious to find out if there's, like, a verification process that what you estimate is actually what's delivered. I mean, does anyone ever check that?

So I think two things. This is a security- Mm-hmm... right? So it only ever gets pulled if there's a deficiency or the township needs the top. So as far as what gets built, it's, the purpose is not to prove or to confirm what gets built. The purpose is for security. So as something gets built, the township staff will go out and do an inspection- Right... and then they'll say, "This has been completed." Interesting. "We're gonna reduce your bond amount by, you know, that magnitude of work." So I hope that answers the question. Like, we're not verifying, you know, how many- Actual

construction costs...

cubic yards of material.

And I would think at some point as a developer and owner, you would want to verify those costs.

Yes. So in the job trailers, there are stacks this high of tickets- Should be, yes... from truck drivers. But yes, the contractor does that as part of their works.

Okay. All right. Thank you. And then when the project is done, there's what's called an as-built survey is done. Mm-hmm. And based on that as-built survey, we go back in- Mm-hmm... re-measure, for lack of a better word, the quantities and, to make sure that, in how it's laid out to make sure that it's built in addition to what we see on the ground, what we see visually and all that. Thank

you.

Any other board-

No. Okay.

Thank you. I just have a question about the landscaping. Is, when you do the landscaping, is it going to be mature landscaping, or

are we gonna have little saplings that are gonna have to grow for 10, 20 years before we get

what's depicted in your pictures? Good question. This has come up a couple times, and I actually have some additional information since then on it. So landscaping when planted depends on the type of plant- Mm-hmm... tree, ornamental, shrub. But we have selected, so let's talk trees, right?

Mm-hmm. A

mature maple tree or oak tree, when planted as a sapling is approximately, you know, probably eight to 14 feet in height at a two-and-a-half-inch caliper. So it's measured by caliper. We have looked at possibility of going to a three-and-a-half or a four-inch caliper, to provide kind of taller trees once they're planted. In talking to the landscape contractors, they actually advised against that because they said the larger the tree, the more shock that happens when they're transplanted. Oh. And that tree that is planted larger, taller, will actually take three, four, five years longer to start the growing process. So they said while a two-and-a-half inch caliper may come in a little bit smaller, in five years it'll be actually taller than that bigger root plant, so.

Okay. What is in the renderings is probably about a 15-year look-... at the landscaping. But, you know-

Long ago

... that's really the best that can be done right now. Because the landscaping would also attenuate some of the noise.

The sound consultant would say no, that the landscaping is not planned for that or does not do that. Okay. So it's just aesthetic.

Yes. Justin, can you explain the caliper? Is that diameter at breast height, right? Correct. Okay. That's

correct. They may even show next picture.

Hilda, Country Manor West, Middlesex. My question is about landscaping too, but why always use the greenwashing in the screen and never use your own technology? Because the technology what you try build in Middlesex, that suppose is good, but always the screen is like ecology picture. Never show exactly.

I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but I believe, looking at some Facebook posts this afternoon, the question is-... the plan or the rendering looks greener than what people believe it will be. Is that a fair statement? No. My question is why, if your technology, you try build buildings, why you use marketing picture, and you don't use your own technology and bring here and show what the landscaping look by 3D, BIM or something? Because your technology is very new. Why you continue use marketing- Picture and don't show exactly what the green area look when it's ready or when you finish build.

I believe we have shown exactly what is on the plans and what it will look like.

You think the landscaping look like that when you finish?

Yes.

No, that's greenwashing because it's really green. Never any landscaping look like that. It looks like a cartoon.

Yeah, that's right. Look like cartoon.

next-

Yes.

I can show you what the engineering, when try do the design, when they been in the university, they design like that. Your technology is very off. Why you coming with that? You supposed coming with your own technology. You have to convincing us that your technology is the best technology. Not the cartoon technology, not the greenwashing technology, not the marketing technology. The actual plan.

We want real- Because my daughter, she can paint the landscaping with a pencil, and use the same color what you showing in the screen. Every time when you coming present something for the data center, you coming with that technology, greenwashing or marketing washing picture. We wanna see the real, the what you try to build in our community. You have something like that? You can bring something like that, something real?

We don't wanna see old technology. We wanna see your technology. The technology what you try putting in that big area.

Photographs.

Thank you. I know.

Andrew Dymski, Bernheisel Bridge. The six water tanks that are there, what's the volume per tank?

I can get that for you, Andrew. It's 2.2, 2.5, 2.4. I don't have it off the top of my head. Can

you figure- 2.4 mil?

Yes. Oh, we can make sure. 2.1 in there, didn't it?

Yeah. They've changed several times. It says 2.1 on there. Well, it's been changed.

Does the fire suppression water, is that just MTMA tap water too, or is that like repurposed water? Uh, yes, it's

MTMA water.

Okay. How much water does it take, like for one of the five buildings when you're getting it online, how much water gets put into the system on the first fill?

I don't have that off the top of my head.

I asked that a couple months ago.

Yeah.

You talking from a conditioning standpoint?

Yeah, I'm just like, to fill up five buildings, how much water is that? Or fill up one building, how much water is that?

Let's see then.

Well, that's fine. We can figure that out.

I don't have that currently.

Pull up on your computer.

Can you guys ask them to get that please? I'm not sure how it's relevant when

400,000 gallons of water-

We don't care if you think it's relevant. It's relevant to us.

Bringing it the water. We'll get an answer.

You the engineering. You supposed to know everything.

I was in-

Or other people sign.

Is it three cycles through before the water needs pushed out?

Again, I think that is in the water report. It's three or five-

Okay...

to confirm that.

That's a big difference.

Three to five cycles. And I'm genuinely curious. When a cycle's complete, is it... Does all the water get pushed out, and then fresh water's put in, or is it like a percentage draws out, and then like the dilution goes down to a certain level? How does that work?

Yeah. I believe there's a purge over time based on clarity verification. But again, there's a whole mechanical engineering team. There's a whole company that's working on this. Can't

hear you. Sorry.

There's a whole mechanical engineering company working on this. They are within the parameters of 400,000 gallons per day to the site, 273 max out of the site. The water system, storage, treatment, cycles, all of that is in the design process. It's all part of the water balance study, which is in the EIA. But for me to talk here right now on those specific parameters, I can't

do that. Okay.

Come on. Mind sharing-

If you can pull the picture up again, where does the steam come out? Like the net loss due to evaporation, where does that happen?

So the evaporation comes out of the cooling equipment. So the louvers on the sides of the-

The microphones

... on the sides of the buildings kind of blow through and the evaporated water comes out. Again, there is no... I love how people use the word loss or we are losing water. I mean, water is going into the atmosphere and then falling again just through the common evaporative cycle of the earth. So we're not destroying water in any of the process. Right. It is being evaporated. Yeah. Contaminating it. So that is-

I get it. Yeah, I understand. 400 comes in, 273 goes out. I'm talking about the delta. Like where... On the designs, does it come out in one spot? Is it spread out? Where does that happen? It's, it's throughout all the buildings on the campus.

So it's distributed across all the cooling systems within each building.

Okay. I had put an evaporative cooling system in my plant, one of the plants I built in Mexico, 'cause it's so arid up in the desert up there. I know we probably had 10 or 12 of these units in there to cool the place, and there again, we were trying to keep it down to 85 and comfortable in there. I think each one of them was like 8 liters an hour- Okay... it consumed

evaporated into the air. Okay. So it's not like a stack of towers in a corner of the building. It's like small units spread out that disperse this heat. Solar

panels, water percolating down from the top. Each bay of the building on each story has its own system, so it's distributed across the entire campus.

Okay. My last question is, in the community benefits agreement you guys listed chemicals you would test for. Will there ever be a list of chemicals you are putting in?

That's right. You asked.

You can see the water.

This has been asked so many times. So

many times.

And- Yeah, the answer to that is, as we stated before, the additions are chlorine, which is what's in the municipal system currently to maintain chlorination levels. There are pH balancers, again, to maintain the current system.

Is your mic on?

Can we turn the mic on? Art, can you pull this a bit closer?

Apologies.

Thank you.

So again, the chlorination and the pH balancer are similar to full treatment. And then from there, the material specifications of stainless steel and then also, for scaling, anti-scaling. So rather than anti-scaling materials, it's being solved through the material within the cooling system. Mm-hmm. And then the last one we mentioned that the water is hard coming from the authority. So there is a softening system just like your residential or other commercial softening systems.

That's it?

That's it. Well, would we be correct in saying that you're treating it pretty much the same way industrial boilers are treated? Yes. Exactly.

Yeah.

Cool. Thank you, guys.

I have a quick question. Is this on? Are we at the point, since we're looking at final, that you can share the number of generators that are going on the phase two campus? Number for it.

Yes. We have shared that for the entire campus, but if you'd like a specific number for two- For two, yes... we can calculate that and get back to you.

Okay. That'd be great. Thank you.

What size are they, please?

And what size are they?

They're rough- I think Pete said at the public hearing, I believe they're twenty... 2.5, 2,500 KW. I think that's right. 2,500 KW pieces.

That's what I wanna know. What's in it?

Okay. Good evening. Arlene Darlington, Wertzville Road, Middlesex Township. Generators. Justin, would you mind showing us the picture of the phase two buildings so you can point out where the generators would be located, and also how many would be at this site? This

image?

That's good, yeah. If that's what, if that shows where they're gonna be, yeah.

So try to point this out. So on this interior courtyard, so on this side of the second building and on this side of the first building, these two are back to back. And then this third or the last building here, they're on the back side here. So as we- I'm not seeing the cursor.

Are you guys seeing that? Yeah.

It's very hard to see.

Oh, there we go. Okay. So as we talked about before, there are, I believe in this row there are 40. So don't quote me on that number exactly, but I believe there's 40 generators. So two per floor, and then there's a couple backups to the backups in the office space. So I think those and then the AWB and the security building each have independent smaller ones for those purposes. As we talked about last meeting, you know, there is a sound barrier screening wall on the back side of this building. It's part of the sound study and mitigation.

So that screening wall, you know, screening the generators and the cooling equipment back there, also serves as an acoustical barrier and has specific, you know, sound attenuation heading in that direction. So I think that... Does that answer your question?

Partially. Thanks. So there's five buildings here. These are the 200 by 900 foot buildings, right? Each of those in size.

Let's see if you worked for that.

Well, that's what you can share. So how many of these... I assume that the number of generators is still around 532 to support the whole project? Yes. Okay. That has changed, yes. So this particular site only has five buildings. So roughly how many generators would be here?

I believe- It's hard... I believe around 200.

Okay, so roughly 40 per building- Yes... here. Okay. At one point we were at 24 per building.

No. That is only the front building on campus three has 24. Okay. So I'm not sure if that was-

Okay. So we can assume that every building has the same number of generators. Okay. That's fine. And do any of these buildings have fans, rooftop fans?

No. Okay. But we still have the two buildings in phase 1B that have the rooftop fans? Correct. And there's no intent to upgrade that design to remove those fans? That's correct. Okay.

I don't understand that, because when I came to the planning commission meeting- This is too-... you said that that building was due to supply chain issues in your vendor. And from what I understand, you don't even have a signed lease yet. And that's what you told this planning commission, and that's what they approved based on what you said.

That is, I think that is-

I live close to those two rooftop ones that are gonna be really noisy. So if it's- I

I think it's misleading to think that they're gonna be noisier or perceived different. They are all part of the sound study. It's different technology. I don't think that's an actual-

How many

... representation.

Justin, what's the height of the screen wall to the north?

That's in the sound report. I think that's the 27-foot wall. Okay. Again, it was-

I think that'll be-

HRG asked us to add that and clarify that in the sound report. That has been added, and we've resubmitted.

Okay.

And just to finish up- Great... so we're still talking that, just to remind the group here, 'cause there's some new faces. So we've talked a bunch of times about the exercising schedule of these generators. And even though it's not the intent that they would be running all the time, except they're intended to be backup emergency generators. But per the warranty, as has been explained by the developer, they are required to exercise, test run those generators for 30 minutes a month. Now, I've asked probably six or seven times for a better understanding of what that looks like, in terms of number of generators running at the same time.

If there's 532 and they only test one at a time, which I have no reason to think differently because nobody will offer that as an explanation, we're talking 13 hours a day, Monday through Friday, forever, that we'll be listening to generators running just to comply with the exercising schedule. So- So-... that

is not accurate. Okay. Which is a good thing. So we have provided some additional clarification on that through the process. So the testing is up to 30 minutes. It doesn't mean it's going to take that long. Okay. They are also tested in batches or groups. So there may be 4 or 10 tested at the same time. So the length of testing is not one after the next. It's not gonna be continuous over the entire year. It is a batch. It's based on the maintenance team, a whole number of scenarios based on what needs done, oil changes, et cetera, on site. So that's... It is an operational need and a requirement. Again, that will be worked out. And what we can state today it is, you know, weekday, normal hours, because that's when the maintenance technicians are on site and, you know, on their normal shift. In a- What are the normal hours? In a circumstance where a piece of equipment is down or replaced or changed, yes, it may extend outside of your typical, you know, 8:00 to 4:00 work hours. But again, it... The design, the sound study, all of that is modeled that everything is running at the same time. So those provisions are built into what has been reviewed and why.

It doesn't work this way.

So the operational sound levels are not materially different in the model with all generators running. So I think that's hard to understand, but that is what the science is showing.

Okay. So my response to you would be thank you for offering that clarification. It's what? Middle of September. I've been asking since probably May, June. So I don't know who you clarified that with, but it certainly wasn't shared at any of these meetings because I haven't missed one. But anyhow, here we are, and thank you for sharing that. So we know now that the timing of the testing will be reduced, the timing. So the number of hours per day will be lesser. But the amount of noxious fumes from the diesel won't be less because you're just gonna run more at the same time. The sound, that remains to be seen. I can't, don't have much of an argument against that because the truth will be, you know, when that actually happens. So I guess I just want to ask my planning committee, and I've kind of been a proponent of reminding us of what our rights and privileges are living in this state. Does any element of this project even whisper to you that we're continuing by approving, and I know you're not doing that tonight, but you are thinking about it, and I'm not hearing any challenging questions, which is so incredibly disappointing to me. I'm sorry about that. I don't know, my lips are chapped. To me, this is still violating our constitutional rights. You know, clear air, clean water, the sound, the disruption of the... You know, we're gonna go through another phase of excavating, and beep, beep, beeps and dust and dirt. And I know that's a means to an end, and that's, quote, temporary, but try telling that to the people that have been putting up with it for the last five months. I just have to wonder, if I was sitting in your chair, I would really morally be bothered that I'm not speaking up and representing the people that are here. We care. We care, and we just don't feel like you guys care, and ladies. I'm not hearing it. I'm not hearing it. You're not defending us. That's right. That's right.

If I can piggyback, I've been kind of waiting because I did have some noise questions, but I was waiting until you finished.

Oh.

But this is a good point. Give you a break. I have a couple questions. Okay.

I'm done. Thank you. Thank you, Justin. All right.

So my question, Justin, deals with the HRG letter dated September 11, '26, on page four and five, table 3-1, modeled equipment noise levels. Let's go. My question is, HRG wrote the specific equipment to be utilized has not been finalized. The projected performance of the proposed mitigation measures appear to be based on assumptions rather than verified acoustic case testing data of actual equipment. So I am still trusting that you guys, when we presented months ago, looking at 50 to, I think, 53 decibels for the equipment. Is there gonna be a point where we see the exact equipment? And I know our guidelines state it doesn't become a problem until we reach 70 decibels, but I think there's a huge change when we go from 50-ish up to 70. So is there any intent to put in writing that we are capping at, say, something like 55? Thank you.

So the intent is to meet or exceed the current sound study, which is well below the ordinance requirement. The equipment, so the- Do you have a mic on?

It's on. This is in modeling.

I think it's on. The equipment that is modeled in here is a conservative equipment, conservative number based on... Yes.

Sorry.

So the end users work with Rolls-Royce, Caterpillar, like all the national, international companies to procure this equipment. They have their own design specs and standards for their use, which are proprietary. I know nobody likes the word, but they are proprietary. So they will not release those specs. They provide the engineering consultants and teams this set of guidelines, which is a maximum that all of those different equipment vendors are within or below. So if they source from manufacturer X or manufacturer Y, it might be different for each building as they're building through these based on what they're buying. But they know that the prescribed sound modeling inputs are, again, conservative, and all the equipment they're gonna purchase for this project will be below that.

Okay. So furthermore, I think what we have tried to do is address that in post-construction, through the development agreement to ensure that post-construction monitoring, testing, and, you know, the ability to add mitigation for compliance is in effect, so. But

our current level is still at 70 dBA, correct? Yeah. Is we're in compliance. I, as speaking more as like a citizen and not as the commission-... when we look at the current regs, I would love to see in writing you guys have a cap much lower than 70 for compliance. But- Mm-hmm. Yeah... I mean, again, that is just asking in that role.

What's the cap for Point Township?

Is he done? Yes. Thank you. I wanted to make a response to the lady that spoke. Excuse me. Maybe I'm not intended to talk. You made the comment that the planning commission was just sitting up here doing nothing and listening. We all have our own opinions, and I know for a fact that more than one of us does not like this, would like to see it go away. But that's not our goal. That's not our job. Our job is to look at the ordinances they wrote, at the stated regulations, at the-

Constitution... sewage

the water, all these regulations. Look at them and see if it complies, and then tell the supervisors, "Yes, it fits." They are the ones that provide the definition of what fits. And we're not sitting here because we like this and don't wanna comment. This is just the job that we agreed to do, and we spend a lot of time doing it, and we don't get paid for it, and we're doing the best we can. We do offer suggestions that are outside of what these people or other developers need to do, and many times they'll say, "Okay, we'll do that for you." And being out here for about 25 years, we can take pride in the fact that we get a lot of accommodations for the public that they don't need to give to the public.

But we get back to the basic premise that we are here to review what is presented, understand what is presented, and compare it to what is allowed or what is required. We're not here to make judgments about whether we like it or don't like it. And when we do that, then we are not doing our job. So I think you, when you say that we're just sitting here quietly, we're listening, and maybe agreeing under our breath, may possibly be. But that's our job. We can't change it. The only way we can get out of it is to resign. So I hope you keep that in mind.

I'm not voting the way I do because I necessarily like it, 'cause that's life.

But you can question and challenge whatever they're telling you, not just listen to them.

Yeah.

We don't hear that enough. You can resign in protest.

Well, we can, we do challenge them from time to time. Yeah.

Well- But it's challenging... I would like to say when they said that they were gonna do those two rooftop fan buildings, you know, and they weren't the same as the other buildings, and they said it's this supply chain issue and because of the vendor, it would've been nice to have said, "Hey, can you back that up with something?" It'd be fine. And I think somebody did question that, you know, at the time. 'Cause I learn more at these planning commission meetings than I do at the board of supervisor meetings. They're great. They're better presentations, questions, everything. But that was said to you guys, and you passed that based on that information that was given to you by the developer, and it would just be nice for every once in a while to hear, "Oh, really?

You know, can you prove that to us?"

They will need to prove it eventually. I mean, we don't have a say here.

Well, it's approved. It's too late.

Uh, no, it's not.

It's too late. It's already been approved by the board of supervisors. They can say they got our vote, but they have not lied to you. If we don't know if they lied to you because they don't have a lease for the buildings by the time they told you that. Uh-huh. Well, but- And I keep on trying to get to this point, because what we wanna hear is, like, some pushback on that. Not waivers. No, because I live by that section, so I'm deeply invested if I, because I live right next to the creek, and I live right by this. Like, I live with this every... And my house has been damaged by the blasting schedule. So we live with this. Oh, really? And now I have at least a couple of $3,000 of damage that's been denied. Every time. So we're living with this. I can't even, like, if I'm sick, I can't even have peace and quiet to recover. I have to physically leave my house due to that noise every day. Same here. So we are going through it... mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And that's why we get frustrated. And why can't we have the same pieces of paper you guys have here with us too?

Yeah. I-

So you have to understand, this is why we are-

I absolutely understand that.

I sympathize... we're living through this. It's my house. What can I do about it? I wish I could do something.

I don't know. Like I said, I have 17 years of city experience, so it's hard for me to- Yeah... understand that you're powerless.

Okay. I wanna make my point about this. You're not holding every-

Weeds are not our responsibility or my responsibility. I'm trying to define what we're doing here.

Going along with Larry is what he stated, our stated role. I think we do ask pertinent questions as we see fit, and we do ask questions, ask them for more than what's in our regulations. And if you recall, not everyone always votes yay.

What about the lot of irregularity found before approved last time, and the commission continue approve? Yes, doesn't matter if the irregularity is in the table, but they continue approve, continue approve, continue approve. It's like anybody see what happened, but they continue approve because, I don't know, the township said, "You have to approve tonight." Why? Why with a lot of irregularity continue approve? Why, is the question. Why?

We approve our minutes, and that's about all we ever approve. We recommend it.

Yeah, recommended. But why recommended with irregularity? When, if we found, if the resident found a lot of irregularity in the paper, in the process, why the commission recommended, doesn't matter if the irregularity is in the table, it's in the paper. It's not, it's not, you know, it's in the paper. If we see, the planning commission that's supposed see too, because you have experience. We don't have experience that we found a lot of irregularity in the paper. Why the planning commission don't found and recommended?

So I'm just gonna ask, I'm just gonna remind

Justin and Andy that, you know, we understand how our ordinance came about.

What's your name, ma'am?

Jocelyn...

Yeah. I guess so.

He knows her. And so what I was gonna say is, you know, we understand that your attorney drafted this ordinance, so I'm just asking for a little grace and understanding that instead of you referring to it as, "Oh, it follows the ordinance," like it protects us, because we all know that it doesn't, and that's not the way it was designed to be. And I guess I'm a little frustrated about the noise, because this is an issue that keeps getting brought up time and time again. And if you were being transparent and working with the residents as you like to say that you are... I'm just gonna point out an example I recently saw in the daily items, which I think is by you, Justin, in Gregg Township, where they are, the ordinance allows for 55 during the day and 52- That was not our project

just to be right-

Not your project, no... not

involved in any way, shape, or form.

Not saying that. But I'm just saying it's, this is what's out there and this is what's happening. And what you're offering us is grossly above that. And you keep saying, "Oh, well, it's following the ordinance." But it's an ordinance that you guys drafted. It is not a protective ordinance. It is not in the best interest of residents. And I'm simply pointing out alternatives, and I wish you would listen to that.

So two things. One, I believe the planning commission has sat here for an excess of 20 meetings, or we have presented at more than 20 public meetings through this process. So while it may seem like questions are not being asked, my sense is they have been asked and answered several times. So apologies for any newcomers or folks that may not have been here through the process. So this is why we do this, for people to answer and ask new questions that they may not have heard for the first time. Secondly, what was presented in the sound study as part of those phases and all phases of development is that the sound study itself is projecting or providing results that show that we are within that 55 dBA limits, and below.

So yes, the ordinance has 70. The sound modeling shows something well below 70. You know, I think it's not that we are not doing that. That is what is in the engineering design right now. So I guess I just need to make that statement because I think it's misleading to say that we are doing something at 70 or close to 70 or we're not exceeding the standards. We are exceeding the standards, which as you mentioned, has become kind of this pseudo standard across the state as this has developed over time. So that's what's in the project currently and that's what will be built and designed.

Viola, Country Club Road. I have a couple. Well, I have many questions, but we're gonna stick around and jump around a little bit here. To the people representing us at this township, I'm

appalled by the fact that we do not have meeting minutes that are basics in the standard industry. There's no reason why we do not have meeting minutes that are representative and clear of what happens in every single meeting. We have downloaded and reviewed hundreds of pages of meeting minutes, and I can tell you I've been misquoted and I've been left out- Yeah... when I've spoken on specific issues. There is no reason for this whatsoever. You either get somebody in here that knows what they're doing or use AI. It's not difficult. And maybe you guys should also say who you are when you speak so that if we're gonna use a transcribing service, they understand who you are. Mm-hmm. And I've said that from the very beginning. You have a very small tab up here, and many people don't know who you are or what you do. So it would be helpful if maybe you said at the beginning, "Hey, I'm Larry." And then you spoke what you had to say. And that way if we do use a transcribing service, right, they would be able to at least recognize your name with a voice, and that would be helpful if you're gonna continue to use a service of somebody who's not on site. But this time and age, this day and age, this is unacceptable. There's no excuse or reason for it. It's appalling. You can take our videos and you can transcribe them from there. It's very easy. We do it all the time. I would like to go and take a look at your laydown on 1C. And some of the things weren't covered at the meeting tonight, so I just want to seek clarification, Justin, to make sure that I understand some of that. The gravel pad that's going to be out there, you mentioned that it was going to be for not only construction, but for parking as well. In addition to that, I do believe, not at this meeting, but a previous meeting, you guys mentioned the wetlands and how that you were going to, well, pretty much destroy wetlands on one side of it, and then buy credits in York County to fix their problem. So I'm seeking clarification on that. I heard that... I want to make sure that I didn't hear that correctly, and so I'd like to understand about the wetland component of that particular phase and what's being done there.

There are no wetland impacts on 1C.

On what? On that side of the road- Oh... there is a marsh area. Yeah.

Correct. We are avoiding- And that's a wetland area... and providing buffer, and we are not impacting those.

So let's talk about the other part of it. Is it on the other side of the road then that you guys are going to take care of the wetlands and then buy credits in York County to fix whatever problem they've got going on down there?

That is part of campus three, yes.

I'm not quite sure why we're permitting that. That's appalling. Yeah. Absolutely appalling. Also, I'd like to seek clarification with the Middlesex meeting that we had at the elementary school. I do believe I heard you state that the buildings were two stories tall. Yes. Two stories for whom? Because my house is two stories, and that's six of my homes. So let's be clear, it's not two stories. Maybe two industrial stories, but it's not equivalent to what a home story is. Is that correct?

Yeah. We never stated that it was. Yeah.

I think it's misleading for people who haven't been here and followed these as closely as some of us have. I think that's very misleading. And I agree with Hilda, there's no reason why you can't have a 3D actual... We get 3D printers everywhere. I can buy one off the internet. Yeah. I don't understand why we don't have one that actually shows the impact, and then people will truly understand how minute our cars and people are next to these buildings that you're building in our countryside.

Not your countryside. And I'm supposed to put up with this for five years before you turn how many diesel generators? How many people, how many... Excuse me, let me back up. So for the parking on 1C, it's my understanding, I read way back in the beginning of this, that you're gonna be running buses from somewhere to mitigate the traffic on Country Club Road. Is that still gonna occur?

That's a potential mitigation strategy for traffic, yes. Mm-hmm.

What about these gigantic tractor trailers that are running up and down our road at 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 AM in the morning that are well exceeding the speed limit? Who can take care of that, Zach?

I'll have the police look into it.

Because I'm up all hours of the night with this project.

Are they going through the project?

You know what? I don't know. I haven't gone out there to stop them and ask them. No, I'm not being funny, I'm being serious. Yeah. I have not gone out there- I will-... but I will say it's not during the timeframe when, like, I don't see 81 backed up, where sometimes we'll see through traffic, you know. But that's not what we're seeing. I'm not seeing that. And they're coming... So if they're at my house, they're coming from 11 down to Bernheisel Bridge Road. So I have no convenience for what's going down on the end of Bernheisel Bridge Road, down on the other side of Country Club.

I would like to know, when's the last time that this company built a hyperscale data center? Have you built these before? No.

Mm-mm. Yes.

Where?

If you go on PowerHouse's website, there are several across the country. Kentucky, Texas, Illinois. Ohio. Where? Virginia.

Three. No. And there's absolutely no complaints from anybody that when you power these up, there's not a low decibel hum that totally drives them insane and makes them wanna jump out of their skin in their house? Is there anybody that wants to swear on that? He will go back there. What?

I have

no comment.

I can't hear you. No comment.

He said, "No comment."

Oh, okay. Sound is a big issue. You are well aware of that, and our ordinances suck. Excuse my French. Hear, hear. They were not built to protect us. I have five years of a build-out that I have to live with. More.

More.

And I don't appreciate being told what the hours are. I already know what the hours are in an email. Do not go over 6:00 PM, please. You are impacting our lives on that road. I understand it's an agreement, but I would really appreciate if you guys hold to the agreement that you have, and that we don't start before 6:00 AM, and that we finish promptly at 6:00. I would appreciate that, so I can actually live my life. Thank you. ---

Kyle Gerber, Bernheisel Bridge Road. Justin, what are the dates that you guys submitted the land development plans for phase 1C and

phase two? I can get those for you, Kyle.

I don't have them on hand.

Okay.

Mark.

When will you have those to us?

The township has a record of them, so-

Is the question from Sam, Mark?

I wanna know how long the township has until the 90-day cycle runs out.

Mark, can you address that?

It's on the agenda.

Well, hold on. When we overflowed the building here a couple weeks ago, we found out that what's printed on the agenda isn't actually when the 90-day window lapses- Yes... it's the date that the township, like, meets next.

Yeah. What do you want, Kyle? The

90.

I wanna know the date when the land development plans are submitted to the township.

Kyle has a right to know. Oh. Mark.

In the past.

Why is it always us?

Why are you guys slow? He never did. He said he did the second date on my second loan.

Mark, that is basic information.

Give me a second. On the agenda is the date of the last board meeting before expiration. That's what you have.

That's all he has.

If you wanna give me a call on the phone, how's that for you? Give me a call. He didn't write this. No

maybe- Would you give me an answer back?

Yes.

Okay. Why? Why not now then?

I don't have the information in front of me, Kyle.

Okay. All right. Okay, jumping back to 1C, we were talking about the road repair. My understanding is that there's going to be a new sewer line laid underneath Country Club Road to pipe the discharge from the PAX-1 project site out to the Carlisle Water Treatment Center. Where does the installation of that new sewer pipe correspond to the road repairs? 'Cause you're certainly not gonna repair the road and then tear it up again to put the pipe underneath it. And I didn't hear you mention anything about the pipe when you were talking about the road renovation process.

Right.

Correct. That's a good observation. But yes, the pipe would be laid, and then as we mentioned, the road improvements come at the end of the project to ensure that once the road is set, it's not gonna be damaged or dug up or deteriorated at that point.

So are you going to lay the section of pipe just in front of 1C now, and wait until the end of the project to run the rest of the pipe?

No. That would not be the plan. It would be part of... It's currently at the authority for engineering review of that lateral.

It's not approved. Not approved yet, though, is it?

Yeah.

But that's first?

No, it's not approved yet.

Not approved.

Okay. All right. Thank you. That's everything.

And we need the allocation agreement, too. We never received the water and sewer allocation. Need to know.

My name's Robbie Kribell, and I live in Sassafras Lane. I'm gonna probably bring this up at every meeting I come to. What I don't understand, and I will never understand, why we can't have this letter that I see you guys referencing to while we're talking about the items on the agenda, why it can't be uploaded with the agenda on the site where we can download the agenda. And my recommendation to the developer is to take some time to do a really nice PowerPoint presentation, so you can answer all the questions that everybody repeatedly asks and give it to us. 'Cause a lot of our confusion is we don't have this information.

We just have a map, and we don't have all the specifics. Like, even the waivers, even if you just put the waivers up here and then we can actually see what you're talking about. Mm-hmm. It's not that hard. Like I said, I worked for the city of Irvine for 17 years, and we always had a PowerPoint presentation so the public could follow what we were talking about. Mm-hmm. And it would alleviate a lot of anger and a lot of frustration and a lot of questions that we get. A lot of our frustration is because you don't provide us the information, and we have to go to all these meetings to put together the information.

Mm-hmm.

Everything else.

It's like, I will say, though, that the planning commissions are the best meetings to find out what's going on. And, like, a lot of things we should know that we don't know, like the fire plan. I still really don't know what the fire plan is. The fire department?

You know, like, if there's a fire. I live right across the creek, so I'm heavily invested in this project. Like I said, I've sustained damage due to the legal blast that was on June 15th and my claim's been denied because- Everybody's

claim's been denied

... houses don't get damaged and broken beams because never did before. We verified that case. I still need appeal to read me about them. Yes. So, you know, like I said, we're going through it over there. And I think a lot of our frustrations is just the lack of presentation, a good staff report. Just, you're not providing us the information. That's why you see a lot of frustration. It just seems like you're almost doing it on purpose.

Mm-hmm.

Because we had 600 and 700 people at our last meeting, and if you were a really good professional organization that really wanted to be up front with what you were doing-

Mm-hmm...

you would hire somebody to do a very good presentation, so we would know what you were doing and what waivers you were asking. And just one quick question I have about the project, off of my frustration of not having information, is, I see all those pools of water, and they always seem to be, like-

It's weird...

geared towards the creek area when I see them on the maps. Are those... And I guess what I understand what you're doing with the waivers is you want, what, 48 dewatering to 72 hours, like, I'm guessing, of those pool areas. I'm guessing, 'cause I'm not really quite sure. I don't understand why you need an extra day. And is there any kind of, like, underlayment that's gonna go under those pool areas so it doesn't, over the years, seep into the creek area? 'Cause they always seem to be towards the creek area.

So related to stormwater, I think I've mentioned this several times. So on exhibits there are blue areas which look like stormwater ponds. On the renderings you'll note that they are green because the overwhelmingly vast majority of the time there will be no water within those facilities. So they are to dewater within 72 hours, and that is a design requirement of the DEP standard for that system because there is filter media in there, and they want a slower filtration through that media to ensure the water quality is better when it seeps into the ground or it leaves the site. So just like your pool filter filters water that comes through that has algae in it, this media in these basins filters the water at a slower pace to release.

So that is the reason for the request to 72 hours. To your comment about the creek, and, you know, I hear scoffs and things every time we say water's going into the creek. The water currently that falls on the site naturally goes to the creek.

It's just- Okay, so that water is from the build... I guess I always... I don't understand where that water's coming from, and that's part of the biggest- It's only rain water that hits the site.

I... Okay. Well, that helps. Goes to the basins, it's treated, and then released to a natural, you know, natural ditch or overland flow, exactly how Jose... or subsurface flow as it- Okay... goes down about 10 feet, it hits the rock, and it travels laterally underneath the soil to the creek and the floodplain. We are mimicking that exactly through this design- Okay... methodology to ensure the wetlands surrounding the site are not impacted. They're still naturally- So this is like a flood control plan. It's- Sort of. It's a stormwater management plan.

Okay.

Yeah. Do you have any further questions?

I do.

Go ahead.

Do we have a tenant yet? We're getting closer.

... conversations with the tenant have been ongoing for many, many months, but- It's been a year, probably. Since February. It's been a long time. There's an obligation that we agreed to in the documents that were approved by the township that we have to disclose the tenant before there are any further final approvals. And so this plan here will be on your agenda for a recommended decision next month, and then will be at the supervisors with the intent for the November 4th meeting. So the tenant will be known before then, or otherwise we're gonna have to request an extension.

Sorry. Yeah

I'd be reluctant to move any more projects forward. You know, many, many months have gone by, like I said. We need better, we need better understanding

too. Yeah. I mean, and, you know, part of the issue is really the work is on the tenant side. So it's been a little bit arduous. I agree. And a lot of the questions that are asked as it relates to operations are all tenant related, right? So you have to understand, you know, we're frustrated as well too, but we'll get there.

That is part of the signed agreement that, you know, our team has set the expectation that nothing happens final on two until the tenant is-

Yeah, I'd like to get it before our final recommendation for approval. Yes. We can. You would like it before the- Yes... October? That they are next to what, the

28th? Tomorrow.

24th.

26th.

26th. October 26th, I believe they'll be back in.

Okay. We actually have a meeting- Do you want to delay that until after this? The 31st. The 27th, 28th. All right. This is September 14th that you're... So you're not coming September 28th? No. Okay. Are you coming on October 12th? No. October 26th? Yes. Okay. And then you're gonna reveal the- That's what Don's requesting.

Six, six more weeks.

I will take that back to the letter review.

Yeah.

And the reason I'm wanting you to say it earlier is I think the first item, so I wasn't quite clear, I heard you correctly. So what's this commitment you're making? To identify the tenant- The buyer knowing-... prior to October 2016. Sure. So you're voluntarily making that commitment? I'm not voluntarily making that commitment. Okay. I'm simply taking it back to the team so that they understand exactly what you requested. Well, I thought you made the statement earlier.

In the development agreement, the supervisors, they will not approve final until the tenant's disclosed to them. That's the statement, exactly.

Yes. That's in the development agreement that's been ratified. The agenda is now ratified. Yes. Signed. Yeah. No further final approvals until the tenant's announced.

Is that in the agreement that we have from the meeting?

Yes. Yes. That can be ruled as that, yeah.

All right.

That is the case. So even if this board fully recommends it, it won't hold up.

But you have one campus... Right? We have the one lease.

And so you don't consider 1C

the part that you're talking about 2 or 3, is that correct? Yeah. But

1C.

But it's not- 1C is the part. We're excluding 1C. Yeah. I think the way it's drafted it says no final approvals for any further campuses. Okay. Well, just

be specific because we're gonna get challenged back about what we said and what we didn't say, so

1C- Read the line in the minutes... 2 or 3. Right. In the minutes. And obviously what Doug is suggesting tonight is we might be in jeopardy coming back here October 26th if we don't identify the tenant, so. I

can't speak for the rest of them.

We will carry that message. We will carry that.

Speaking of minutes, looking at the township website again tonight, and no minutes posted from July 13, July 27- Yeah... and August 10th that are approved. Why are they not on the website? I don't know. Can't be with you.

That's, because they make us do rat holes for everything. They make decisions, but there's no minutes for you to review. Yeah.

No, they were already approved. They're not on the website.

Are we approving minutes that aren't accurate now?

No, you're not hearing me.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. You're insisting on what I said. I apologize.

This was made for the public, okay? Okay. This committee has approved minutes from July 13, July 27, and August 10. They are reviewed and approved.

Okay.

My point is they are not on the website for you to see. Right. Okay? Yep. So, you know, making crazy acquisitions or things about how we're gonna operate, that's not what we're doing here. I called out an observation that approved minutes are not available for you. You're welcome.

I understand. I hear you. You said that the first time.

We hear you now.

We hear you now.

Chris, from, I live

in

Cumberland Range. I think people are frustrated because you all have microphones that you're moving around, and you're all forgetting to hold them up to your mouth and talk into them. Justin, you're not talking to it at all. You just move close, then you move back.

Yeah.

We can't hear half of what you're saying. Y'all just talked about commitments and you're back and forth and back and forth. So if someone could please clarify in the microphone what the commitment is that's being made, I think you'd have a little bit less frustration, and then that can accurately be reflected in the minutes. Anybody have a question what I just asked for?

No.

I'd appreciate if someone could please clarify what the commitment is-

Commitment is-

... that they just asked to make.

The commitment is planning commission is not gonna approve anything going forward until they tell us who the tenant is.

Is that for all phases or just for the last two? The remaining two. 'Cause you're talking multiple phases here. All phases. It's all phases. The remaining two. We wanna know who the tenant... They've got to, there's gotta be a first tenant. Okay. We wanna know who that tenant is. But- We're not gonna discuss anymore. Okay. Like he said, it's been a year, and we're drawing a line in the sand, so don't bother coming back. Even in the 26th, if you're not gonna tell us who the tenant is, don't bother coming back- Right... 'cause we're done. Appreciate

it.

Thank you. Thank you.

My question is, once the tenant is disclosed, is there anything in particular that you need to know, or is it just a matter of knowing? Well, is it- We wanna know who the tenant is.

What AI you're gonna use. We wanna know who the tenant is.

Speak closer to the microphone. We can't hear you.

We wanna know who the tenant is, and we wanna start to deal with them and nailing down some- Due diligence... equipment challenges or we want commitment from them or answers, like this topic of the fans, and we hear this supply chain crap. This is the United States of America. We're supposed to be the best. So don't bring us this equipment that you're gonna have it in the others. We want the best now. So- Or we-... don't come with this second class stuff. We want, get rid of the, if you can get rid of the fans on the roof, bring us the latest technology.

And

another thing we're gonna talk about is decommissioning costs.

Thank you.

Yes.

We're building these giant concrete tubes.

Not even near it.

And if the technology changes, which it does all the time, and these buildings will mostly... Right now in Cumberland County, the taxpayers are paying $13.6 million to tear down the old frog and switch- Yeah. Yep... manufacturing company that went bankrupt.

Mm-hmm.

And we're left holding the bag or sitting there with the junk. We've got a motel out here that's an eyesore that we've been trying to rid of for years. So we want to know who the tenant is, but we wanna talk to them 'cause it's the tenant that's gonna have to pay the bill and provide what they say they are long after you guys are gone. Yeah. So we wanna start to deal with who is gonna be our neighbor. Correct. That's right. We got you.

Consider it popped.

Thank you. I'll take the message back. Okay. And I agree with the lady, when you bring this stuff in, put up on the screen, put the waivers on so they can see them. It's frustrating to sit there and hear us talking, and you can put it on the screen. That's what we spend all the money to put this stuff here for. Bring copies of the waivers you're requesting along that we can pass out.

And use the pointer so we can see.

Tracy, if I could add on, this isn't necessarily for the developers. I feel as a township, we are behind on decommissioning. I know we've been told there's no way we can force it, but we have so many blighted properties, and I think this is so huge. We need to have a mechanism to have a decommissioning bond for something of this magnitude. And that- And maybe it can be addressed- Thank you... with the actual tenant.

Yeah, so we- Yeah... we actually in the side letter earlier with the township, we proposed a $5 million bond-... to carry a liability insurance as well too. So both of those are contained in the letter.

Andy, I appreciate you mentioning that. I think we should be looking minimum 20-

Yes... on that. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Construction, they pay more, a lot of money.

That's true. And to address some earlier comments about why we're not asking questions, this, you aren't here, you haven't been here before and seen how the process works. This is the land development phase. The big warehouse that's out here beside the... What's the diner? Middlesex Diner.

Middlesex Diner. That big warehouse beside there. We went through the same thing with that, didn't we, Larry? We did. About the fans on the roof. Yeah. But there's no sense talking to these guys about the fans on the roof to a certain point, because they're the land developer. They're just preparing the site to build the building. Correct. Once we get into talking to the guy about building the building, that's when we start coming in with our, where we start asking questions and make suggestions. It's like the county home over here.

Gosh.

There's a member who was on the board, he's moved out of the area now. I forget what building there was gonna be built, and he said, "Oh, my God, that's so high. There's not a building, like, that high in the county." Well, there was. The county home- Yeah... whether you know it or not over there, the new part is over 70 feet tall. Yeah. You don't realize it, 'cause plenty of it's down in the hollow. But that is when we get in to start, when we ask the questions about the specifications of the building, is when we get to that part.

Right, Bud? We, this board has

responsibility for land development- Correct... and zoning, period.

But we also do get into it with the-

Up to the zoning and building permit officer at that point.

Oh.

So the pictures they show aren't necessarily what the tenant's gonna build, because they're only the developers.

Correct.

Correct. We're... That's what they're showing us they're building. Marketing. That's what we're- No, that's- Yeah... that's the developers are doing. And that's what you're gonna build. Will it be a big

Amazon sign or whatever on the side of the building?

Well, we don't know till we see who the tenant is.

Yeah. Yes.

Well, that was a better response than we've had.

Yeah, thank you.

Mark, do you have any other questions? No.

Move to adjourn.

We move to adjourn.

Move to second.

Move and second to adjourn, all in favor say aye.

Aye.

Those nay.

Motion

yeah.