Friday, August 28, 2026

There's no way they can't have it.

That's true.

Yeah. So-

Hey. How are you?

Good. I've done my job.

That's great.

(The Pledge of Allegiance, recited together.) "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Well, we'll start with public comment. Remember, this is for residents and taxpayers in Middlesex Township. Our space limit for comments is two minutes.

Hi. Good morning, everybody. I have a question, another one of these process questions. We have the month, you have the monthly meetings at six o'clock on Wednesdays, I guess. What's the purpose or the difference for this meeting versus the topics that we discuss at the monthly meeting? Did you hear me? I'm sorry. I'm not quite... I'm awake. It got

started way back when so that they could review plans or things that would be coming up at the next board meeting ahead of time. That's how it got started.

Okay. So from there-

We've got the-

Why are we making, why are you making major decisions at a workshop, what I consider a sort of a working meeting, a discussion meeting, versus the monthly meeting, which to me has a more heavy, serious intent?

Well, I think I can answer that. The supervisor, the solicitor can correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a public meeting duly advertised, and at any public meeting we can make decisions no matter how the meeting is titled.

Okay. So that's a little different than what Mr. Geistwhite just said. He said it's more-

Well, he said the intent of the meeting when it got started was to use it as a workshop. Obviously, as the township has grown and more issues have come up, it also gives us the ability to have another public meeting with public comment and address agenda items and vote on those, as opposed to having one meeting a month.

So do you think it's fair to the public, most of people, many people have to work during the 7:30 hour, that perhaps you'd consider changing the time to accommodate, maybe make it another evening meeting in between your monthly meeting? It would serve the same purpose, and yet you'd allow and invite more residents to, you'd facilitate the ability for more residents to attend. Is that a possibility? That's

something we'll have to discuss as a board.

Okay. Yes. But will you take that as a consideration?

Take it as a suggestion.

Okay. Thank you.

Oh, I did. Sorry. I did.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Hilda, Country Manor West. Maybe my question is similar, like Darlene, but why do they hold the meeting so early? 7:30. Most people have to go to work, go to prepare the child for school. Why do too early the workshop, 7:30?

So you'd prefer it to be later in the morning when people are at work?

No. In the evening. No, don't laughing. I think it's- Evening. No, I'm talking to him because he laughing. I don't know why. That was a question to him. I think it's, again- In the evening, like other meeting.

As I said to Mrs. Carlikan, it's something the board will consider, the suggestions of the public that have been made this morning. I was not involved in the decision of when these meetings were set up and the timing of the meetings, but it's certainly something that, you know, we'll discuss as a board and the staff of the township.

In the evening, like other meeting, 6:00

6:30? Well, I think there's a lot of options. We'll discuss the options that are available to us and whether it makes sense for us to change the meeting. We don't have to have a workshop meeting. I think we're obligated to have one meeting a month. Just there's so much activity that it's hard to get through the agenda with one meeting a month.

Okay. Sometime when you make a meeting workshop, like 7:30, do you take the decision when you, when data center proposed, you make the decision in the workshop, 7:30 too?

Yes.

When you start the process for data center?

I wasn't here in 2025 on the board of supervisors, so I believe that there was a decision for the overlay was made at a workshop meeting. I believe you're correct.

That's why I coming here talking about that, because now a lot of people are coming because the community is more interested in what happened in our township. But before, long time ago, like one year ago, this area is really empty. Maybe less people than here because 7:30 is too early. Maybe take the decision for data center missing the people here, and that's why a lot of residents don't understand what happened with data center. Because a lot of decision-making in workshop is because take 7:30 AM. That's why we're talking about the time.

Thank you.

Okay

thank you.

Good morning. Earl Beam, Country Club Road. I'm here this morning at this time representing some neighbors, representing neighbors that either handicapped or can't attend our meetings. So what I'm saying is not all my words, but I'm gonna refuse to read a letter at the entrance saying, "I feel the township has a circle in my back and I didn't even exit in the middle of it." They often thought... They said to me, "Well, we thought we were representative by three people. Three people were elected to protect and to represent the citizens and the residents of this, of..." But as it's turned out, it's really not been that way.

If you look back, how that overlay was presented, it was between Mark Carpenter and Tracy Gleim, brought up by... I guess that's Corey. No, Charlie and Justin, and this way they got a foot in the door. So where was the transparency? As people, residents had no idea what was going on. So they're very upset about that. Now, as you look at it, through the right to know, we found letters or communication between our board, whether it's Bud Grove, Mark Carpenter, or a solicitor between Justin and Charlie that are really not that good, and a lot of people are really upset about it.

So now, with their foot in the door-

Sorry

... our choices are, as stated by our representatives, that either we ignore it and it's passed, we guess and it's passed, or we vote no. So as we were told, if we vote no, we'd be sued. Well, Lord forbid our taxpayers' money who represent, that pay their wages, and we want representative. Nobody has so far, but we don't know if we're gonna have the spine in your back to be able to vote no next Tuesday night. Yeah, they have insurance. That's

right.

Well, we as residents deserve more than just a yes and be afraid to say no. I know what it's like over 45 years being sued. I sued a medical facility for the death of my daughter. Everybody said, "Hey, you're never gonna win." Guess what? I paid big bucks, got good lawyers. I beat the doctors. I've been sued many a times in business, millions of dollars. If I would've stepped back and said, "No, I don't wanna do this," I'd been looking down upon myself saying, "Hey, I never even took a chance." So why the supervisors can't get behind in their back and represent us, the tax-paying residents of this township, and vote no.

Thank you very much.

Robynn Eppley, Beagle Club Road. This question is for Keith Brenneman. Hi, Keith.

Good morning. Good morning. You were going to check into, I believe, the State Ethics Committee, I'm not sure if I have that correct or not, to determine whether Phil Neiderer needs to recuse himself from making decisions that are coming from the Cumberland County. Have you heard back from that?

I did, and the Ethics Commission indicated there's no conflict of interest. I am participating, discussing, or voting on matters involving Cumberland County. So... Okay. Thank you.

Ashley Asper with Horners Road. Just a quick question. The Cumberland County Planning Commission had a meeting, I believe it was January 15th, and the county commissioner, which is Mr. Neiderer's wife, she actually removed herself from the discussion because that's her husband for the Middlesex Township Board. So would there... If she feels there is a conflict of interest, is there not maybe one that could be seen here as well?

Well, I don't know why she removed herself.

Uh

it states that- Whether-...

it was a discussion as her husband is the Middlesex Township supervisor. That was the reasoning.

Right. Again, I don't know why. She may have perceived she had a possible conflict. People do that all the time. Or she may feel she had a real conflict. I suspect, I don't know, I've not talked to her about this, that she wanted to avoid the appearance-

Right

... of a conflict by doing that when there's no ethical conflict in fact.

Okay. I guess so... Also, we know you're the Cumberland County solicitor as well, so there's no conflict of interest there either if you're guiding both parties. Okay.

And I... Right. I'm not representing the county in terms of presenting any zoning ordinance to this township.

Okay. Thank you.

Let's move on

to probably one of the harder things we're gonna do this morning, and that is to accept the resignation of Bill Goodhart. Bill's been with the township for, oh, man, about 15 years with the supervisors, and his health is causing him a lot of issues. That's the reason. So let me make a motion to accept Bill's resignation. I'll second that motion. All in favor? Aye. Aye. It's not a happy time, but whatever.

Do you want me to discuss?

Go ahead.

Discussion possible motion appointing a new township supervisor. So obviously it's time to start the process of appointing a township supervisor. It's all outlined in the Class II township code. The Board of Supervisors has 45 days to accept Supervisor Goodhart's resignation. We've accepted that today. Second Class Township code indicates that we have 30 days to appoint a new supervisor. If 30 days go by and one has not been appointed, then the vacancy board gets enacted. Steve Larson is the chairman of the vacancy board. He was appointed in January at the reorganization meeting. That gives another 15 days to try to come up to a decision to appoint a-...

supervisor to fill the vacant position. The vacant position is only good through the following year, or in our case, until the next municipal election, which is November of-... 2027. Supervisor Geistwhite's term also expires at the end of 2027, so there will be two openings for supervisors in 2027. If for some reason we do not appoint somebody within 30 days, the vacancy board fails to fill the position, the vacancy board shall petition the court of common pleas to fill the vacancy. I don't think that's in our best interest. PSATS, which is the Pennsylvania State Association of Township Supervisors, which gives us recommendations, says the best practice is to open it up to eligible township residents, which is any elector of the township who's lived here for at least one year.

And I think that's what I would recommend, is that we open it up to- Agree... people to submit resumes, and maybe a brief sentence or two about why you wanna run for township supervisor. Like to have those ideally within two weeks. And then the board of supervisors will review those, and then hopefully make a decision at the last meeting in September. So obviously we have a lot of eligible residents and, I don't know, Zach, you could address your resumes and letters to Zach.

Yeah, I'll put my... We'll probably put something out on our website as well as Facebook, just that we're accepting resumes. And I will put my contact information, my email address for anybody that is interested to submit them. So two weeks from today would be September 11th? Is that...

Yeah.

Okay. So by September 11th for anybody that would be interested, and then the board can review those resumes.

And if something comes in, you know, after September 11th, it's not that we're gonna ignore those. We'll certainly, we'll look at them, thank you. We're just trying to do this in a timely fashion. And, you know, again, this just opens up to the residents of the township that are eligible. Just anybody that's wanted to have been here in the township more than one year. With the understanding that that term only will run through the, well, the end of '27 or until the reorganization meeting in January of 2028. So if that person who gets appointed wants to serve longer, they'll have to get their name on the ballot, and they'll have to run next year.

Am I generally correct,...? Yep. Okay.

Excuse me. I did have a question on the first topic, if I may address the first topic here.

Okay.

Okay. Go ahead. Mr. Goodhart, you've known he's been ill for some time, I assume. So, when did you plan on letting us know, prior to just a few days before a meeting, that he'd be resigning? 'Cause I know several of us have asked, you know, over several weeks now, where he's been, and we've got no answer. So how long have you guys known that this was happening?

This is the first time I've seen his letter of resignation, and we have 45 days as a board to accept his letter of resignation. So whenever the letter is seen by the board of supervisors, we have 45 days to accept it, and we have accepted it today.

Okay.

And it- So you just got it and you've accepted it today?

And it's, and certainly it's not appropriate for us to- Discuss people's personal issues-

Mm

... as to why they can't fulfill their role. I think if someone feels that they can't fulfill a role that they've been elected to, the best thing to do is to resign and let someone else fulfill that role. And I'll just give people my- Mm... my reflection on my last eight months as a township supervisor. It's certainly been an interesting role. You know, I think there's a lot of opportunity for people who are interested in serving the township to serve. There's an awful lot to learn. Anyone who gets appointed really should go to a supervisors school.

There's several organizations who can do that. For me, it was one night and then there was two Saturdays, full Saturdays of training either with PSATS or the other organizations that give training. It really is something that you can't just sit up here and just start voting on things as you feel that your heart directs you to vote on, because you have to understand the Municipalities Planning Code, the Pennsylvania law. Yeah. You have to understand, you know, Class 2 township code. You have to spend a lot of time talking to your zoning officer, to our engineer, to solicitors, township staff. There's an awful lot that goes into this.

We're getting ready to get into budget season.

Mm-hmm.

That'll be time-consuming. You know, I spend a lot more time at this job than I ever thought I would. I'm spending at least 20 hours a week at this job. I'm sure some people could get up here and not spend that time. I don't feel I'd be doing my duty if I didn't spend the time. Obviously, there's big issues in this township right now that I think require a lot of time. A lot of issues come up that you have to talk to staff throughout the week. And as you understand, it's, you know, as Mr.

Beam said, we all have targets on our back in this current situation. So, you know, people who want to submit a resume, you know, it's not an easy job. It takes a lot of time. It takes a lot of education. And I'm just gonna share with you a letter that I received... Well, I'm sorry, it was an email, I'm sure related to PAX-1. It's from, I'm not gonna give the resident's name. It's not a township resident. The person's from Lemoyne. I'm not gonna use the full word, but I will just use F.

This is the kind of thing that we're getting.

"F you, F your wife, F everyone you love, since you want to F us all. Have fun in hell because God doesn't like liars or snakes."

Those are the kind of things you have to be prepared for- I understand... as a supervisor in this role. And maybe there's some of you in the audience who are, you know, too afraid to clap, but you wish you could clap with this kind of thing. But this is what you deal with in this position. Right

and I'm sure you get people like that, but you have concerned citizens here who, in what you just described, didn't say anything about considering the people of the township. You have meetings. You have to meet the zoning. You... What about the people here sitting, and the people who come to the meetings when they can? Do they matter? Does your time matter to them?

Well, that's precisely why I decided to put my name on the ballot last year, lifelong township resident. I wasn't completely enamored with how things were going in the township, and I thought, "Well, maybe I could make a difference." Unfortunately, voting on items is not as simple as voting with your heart. You do have to follow the law, and that's something that I've learned over the last eight months. But it's a position that's open up to almost 8,000 people now. So we'll be looking forward to getting resumes. I know at least one resident has reached out to me already, expressing an interest.

I'm sure there'll be a lot more over the next two weeks.

All right. Well, thank you.

Thank you. I, oh, who was asking a question?

Okay.

Hi, Chris Gehr, Cumberland Valley Agency. Just to add on that for a matter of transparency, can you provide us with the date that Bill Goodhart sent his letter of resignation, when it's dated? And did he provide- I-... an effective date? And when he's finished, what is the effective date?

Well, his effective date of his resignation is today, because the board of supervisors has to accept his resignation. The letter is dated July 31st.

July 31st. Thank you for that. Yeah, there you go.

Okay. Next is discussion and possible motion to appoint Lawrence M. Clark to the zoning hearing board. We did interview Mr. Clark several weeks ago. He certainly seems well-qualified. So moved. That is... Oh, there is Mr. Clark right there. Hi. Yes. Good to see you. So two weeks ago we interviewed you for the meeting, and reviewed your resume. You're certainly well-qualified, and as always, appreciate your ability to step into the role. So I'll make a motion to appoint Lawrence M. Clark to the zoning hearing board. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor?

Aye. Aye.

Opposed? I have a question about that. You proposed a motion for Lawrence Clark. He present here. That's right. What happened with Jennifer Hipp? She's a lawyer for right now for board, for- That board, she work with him? Because I read the only way he can work is, is accept, is because she have conflict of interest, and she cannot work. And the board can hire another lawyer, but she don't work no more, Jennifer Hipp.

I think she's still the solicitor for the zoning hearing board, as far as I'm aware.

Here, in this- Middlesex Township. Yeah. Jennifer Hipp, she's the lawyer for this board.

Yeah.

She work for Toomlan.

That's true. See, zoning hearing board.

Okay, look for information here. Okay. She worked for board and Hipp law office. Position, solicitor for the Middlesex Township Zoning Hearing Board.

That's what we said, she's a solicitor for the zoning hearing board for Middlesex Township.

I know, but two lawyer work in the same board, if- There's nothing wrong- You propose, you have a motion for Miss, Miss Clark, Mr. Clark. If she's a solicitor, he coming for the solicitor too, because he's a lawyer. He's just a- Oh, he's not the lawyer... No

he's not gonna be the solicitor. He's just a member of the zoning hearing board- Okay, that's-... who hears cases that come before the ZHB.

That's I wanna know, if he's a lawyer or not.

No, no, he's just the zoning hearing board member, and he's been duly appointed.

Okay. Yes, I wanna make sure, because I read his background, and he said that he's a lawyer. But I wanna make sure he's not the lawyer, he's for the zoning hearing board.

No.

Okay.

Next of discussion, possible motion of clarification, restatement of scope for previous motion on the zoning map, zoning ordinance, and overlay districts. Let me find my... There, I was at the planning commission meeting earlier this week, and there was a discussion about the county to come in requesting to allow principal solar energy systems in industrial districts. And there was reference made by several planning commission members to a motion that I had made on February 27th of this year. I'll read the motion.

"On the motion of Vice Chairman Neiderer, seconded by Supervisor Goodhart, it was unanimously agreed to not allow any further amendments to the zoning map and zoning ordinance, or establish overlay districts that would permit or expand data center uses within the township-"

Can you slow down just a little bit?

Yeah.

"... until the township has completed and formally adopted an updated comprehensive plan addressing the future of the township to include data center land use, infrastructure impacts, as well as community impacts."

And, of course, the intent when I made the motion was to halt further data center development in the township, so we'd have the time to reset and get a comprehensive plan that was updated. Apparently the language to some of the members of the planning commission was ambiguous. I did put the motion into four major AI chatbots. ChatGPT thought the motion was worded as I intended it.

Gemini and Copilot thought that it had the wording to reflect the intent that some of the residents or the zoning, or sorry, the planning commission members had interpreted it. Putting it in Claude, which is Anthropic's AI chatbot, they were ambiguous. It said you could interpret it either way. Well, I know how it was meant when I thought at the time it was doing, you know, what the residents wanted, which was to stop further data center development. Because without that, it's open, we're still open for data center development.

So to ensure that the motion reflects the board's actual intent- Mm-hmm... and my intent at when I made the motion, and to avoid any confusion for residents, applicants, staff, the board is adopting a clarifying motion that restates the clause as applying only to zoning actions related to permitting or expanding data center uses. So I move that the board clarify and restate the motion adopted on February 27th, 2026, concerning amendments to the zoning map, zoning ordinance, and overlay districts. The board's intent is and has been to temporarily pause only those zoning actions that would permit, enable, or expand data center uses within the township.

Accordingly, the board hereby amends and restates our motion as follows.

"Middlesex Township shall not accept, process or act upon any amendments to the zoning ordinance and overlay districts to the extent such amendments would permit, enable, or expand data center uses within the township. This temporary pause shall remain in effect until the township has completed and formally adopted an updated comprehensive plan addressing data center land use and infrastructure impacts and community impacts. All other zoning amendments, zoning ordinance amendments, and overlay district proposals unrelated to data center uses may proceed in accordance with applicable law, township ordinances and township procedures."

Second. We'll get public comment.

I just wanna bring to your attention that the meeting for that on the agenda, the agenda basically says discussion and possible motion on future zoning ordinance amendments. That doesn't clarify that that is only for the data centers. We... And then also, if you go over to the planning commission for Cumberland County on January 15th, they actually have stated that they suggested no zoning changes. If you read, it's under the Middlesex Township Data Center Overlay, they actually don't want any more zoning changes because we had just adopted our zoning ordinance. And they stated that you also-... you or a township supervisor agree that the comprehensive plan is important. The suggestion has been that the township pauses to examine the overall picture of the township through the comprehensive plan update before approving zoning changes.

And that document is what date?

January 15th, 2026.

26?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I have spoke with Kirk Stoner from the planning commission-

Was that the gentleman that was here the other night?

Correct. And again, this was my intent in February. I have clarified this at public meetings. I clarified it to Mr. Manta. It's in the minutes reflected July 31st, 2026, when he asked the same question, about that there was a, we're not supposed to have any zoning changes. It's clearly reflected in the minutes that I explained to him that the intent of the motion, and at that point to clarify the board's decision, was that we were only putting a pause on data center development and not other zoning changes. It really hamstrings residents and businesses who wanna do things in the township.

It will take probably a year, maybe longer, for the comprehensive plan. The comprehensive plan is not a regulatory document, so anything that the comprehensive plan outlines then needs to go to zoning changes and SALDO changes. So, you know, even just having a comprehensive plan is not really enough to change zoning. But since we- So we'd be looking at a probably a two-year

process. But since we just did the zoning changes, obviously for three years, that was the intent of Middlesex Township to direct us in a direction that they were hoping we would go, which is why they made all the zoning changes. So it doesn't really make sense that... I understand it would take a year for, and it may hinder some residents. But at the same time, it's backtracking and backpedaling, and I feel like it could open up a lawsuit for the township if we're going to go off of an agenda and then completely change it and backtrack and say we're, you know, "This was our intent, and now this is not our intent." We're backpedaling to change it.

Well, I'm not backpedaling at all. I was very clear of my intent on February 27th, 2026. But the agenda was not. And I am clarifying that motion today.

Okay. I'm just saying we should probably be careful in our township.

Could we see that in writing?

Sure.

Before you... I mean, it was pretty long what we just said and proposed.

It will.

Sure.

Well, all the lights might wanna see it in writing-

Oh, sure

... just saying, 'cause you're gonna vote on it.

Mm-hmm. Well, and we already have, we can make more copies, and that'll be certainly a part of the record as well. So we have a motion-

There's still public comment.

Okay. There's... Yes, sir. Sir, don't take this the wrong way, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and intentions are not what was written on that paper. It was clear to a number of us, most all of us, and I could ask for a show of hands of the people in this room that understood, as I understood it, that the motion that was made and passed and seconded by, I believe you, by, Goodhart made the motion, you seconded, was to halt what we're talking about right now today. It seems to me as though we're trying to fast-track a solar field to go in the property that belongs to Cumberland County next to the gas tank storage area right off of Army Heritage Road.

And if that's the case, that's certainly not what the intent of the township is or the intent of the residents is to have yet another solar field go in somewhere where good farmland is right now. I believe that that land over there is A-1 farmland. So I, if somebody could correct me, please do. Well

the motion that I made in February was long before the county came to the township requesting rezoning of the institutional district to reflect what it had been prior to the rezoning ordinance.

But your motion and second says we're gonna halt it, and now you're... So why are you going back on it? I'm not going back. There is no going back. I'm telling you, if I came to

you and you and I had a conversation, and you know, I respect you as a man, I respect your service to this country, and if I was maybe-

Thank you

... misunderstanding what your intent, what you were saying was, and I came back to you later and I said, "Well, you said this." And you said, "Well, no, no, no. That's really not what I meant. You misunderstood me. What I meant was this." I would take your word as a man that you said what you meant. I know what I said. I know what was in my mind at that time. This has nothing to do with the county or solar. This is restating and clarifying the intent of a motion that I made myself in February. So if you said something to me, Lieutenant Colonel Manta, that I took in a different way than you intended, and you clarified to me, I would respect you as a man and say, "Okay, I'm sorry.

I didn't understand what you were saying."

"Thank you for clarifying." I appreciate that, and I really do... I truly do respect you and all the board members, the solicitor and Mark and everybody else that's involved in the decision-making process. But at the same time, you have to respect the residents of the township who read that motion in the minutes and took it for what it said and not what... And we didn't know what your intent was. And to try to clarify it now, it looks like you're backpedaling on the motion. Yes. Thank you for your time. That's good.

So we have a motion, we have a second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries. Discussion on possible motion on request number one for release of improvement security on preliminary final subdivision, land development plan for Grange Phase Two. I think- Yes. Mr. Engineer, you're up. Thank you very much. I am

... older. Change. Do you have a memorandum from me originally dated August 26th, and we revised the next day because of a typo that I had in the August 26th memo? Bottom line is, is the developer, right, had asked for a- Request... request to reduce the amount of security by $2,432,307. And I took that into consideration with the site inspections. We reviewed the construction files. And I disagree to the favor of the developer with their recommendation. I'm recommending that we reduce it by $2,476,611, which would bring the balance down to complete the project to $979,840. The difference is they had a $61,000 line item for engineering inspections, which is incorrect.

The engineering inspections are estimated at 2% of the construction cost. And because of that error on their part, that increases the amount of reduction to the amount I just said, $2,476,611. So that's my recommendation for reducing the security at the Grange

Phase Two. So I make a motion that we release the improvement security on preliminary final subdivision land development plan for Grange Phase Two in the amount of $2,476,611. Second. All is in favor? Aye. Motion carried.

Thank you.

Thank you for your work.

My pleasure

I appreciate it. Discussion and possible motion on final subdivision plan for Cumberland Range Estates Phase Six. The 90-day review ends September 19, 2026 for the supervisor action deadline 9/2/2026. This has been presented to the planning commission. In my recollections, the planning commission voted to approve Phase Six. So I guess we have the developers here. Bud, do you wanna comment on this as well since you've been heavily involved in- Sure... in this? Sure. There's a whole lot of conditions on this, which I think are understandable. But I'd like to give your opinion as the engineer.

This is the fifth of six phases of this development. It's Phase Six. The developer, Elizabeth Nauss, has decided to do phase six instead of staying phase five, which is fine. Next. The plan is exactly as approved at the preliminary level. So from a technical standpoint, the plan is fine. So we had recommended, and I don't know if you have a copy of my memo to the planning commission, we had recommended approval subject to the conditions listed in my memo to the planning commission, and I believe your motion should follow that.

And Mark, do you wanna comment on those conditions?

I've drafted a motion for you there. There's no waivers. The waivers were granted at the preliminary plan stage, and they still apply to this plan. I've drafted nine conditions there. One would be that they meet Bud Grove's comments. Two, that they meet the municipal authority comments.

Oh, let's stop you there, Mark. Go ahead. Rory did submit comments- Right... and they are in your packet there, concerning previous phases

we completed prior to this. And that's this, his email is included in there.

Yeah. Yeah. That's reflected in number two and number three.

Yeah. And what it is, is they did not receive as-built plans, and they'd like to have a look at the street before they're paved. That's the gist of the email.

Can you repeat that last thing about the streets, Mark? I couldn't hear you.

Um-

That they gotta be paved? I could use-

Just a minute.

The reason the authority wants to look at the streets is because of all of the water valves and manholes that are there. And- Make sure- They wanna make sure that they're at the right levels to see if there's any damage to them before they pave. They are looking for an as-built of all the sewer and water for phases two, three, and four, that has been in place for quite a while now. And, that's what the authority wants.

We're gonna discuss paving of the streets, yes. There's proposals to pave the streets. That'll be next on the agenda. And the authority would like to look at the utilities before they're paved, and they also want as-builts from prior plans. That's what Bud had said. So the third condition is, again, the municipal authority issued a review yesterday of sewer and water, things that need cleaned up on the plan. So that, it would be subject to that, subject to the comments of the Cumberland County Planning Department. It'll be subject to prior approvals for the preliminary plan. This is pretty standard that we would hold them to the conditions on the preliminary plan, and this, in case there was something outstanding that isn't caught on the final.

That's correct. Number six has to do with... They have to show all the required public improvements, including the walking trails. They have to show us on a note how and when the walking trails will be built and how they'll be maintained and turned over to the HOA. This was a condition on the preliminary plan, just carried forward, and they did show, they're showing a four-foot wide walking path and the location of it on the plan. Number seven, that they pay the recreation fee in lieu. There's five building lots on this development. Just so you guys understand, this is five lots on about 80 acres.

This is a small cul-de-sac. So they would pay $3,750 for recreation fee in lieu, that they enter into a developer's agreement and post public improvement security to make sure that the public improvements that are required by our ordinances are built. That's what we did on the last, we just refunded $2 million 'cause they made improvements at the Grange. We do that on every plan so that the public understands. We do hold financial security. The last one has to do when they record the plans, that they record all the plan sheets. Is there a question? Those are pretty standard. If there's any public comment, please come up, state your name and address, and we-

Chris Gehr, Cumberland Range Estates. Mark, you talked about the walking path to the development, one of those items. Yes. As a live in that development, I was under the understanding

that, about two years ago, that that walking path was

not happening. Can you clarify that? Because we were told- I would say-

... at an HOA meeting that it wasn't happening... I can make this statement. From my standpoint, it's shown- Mark... it's shown on the plan.

Mark, excuse me. With the developer's here, should we let the developer answer that question? We can. I just wanna say- Yes... it's shown on the plan- I think it makes a lot more sense, we have the developer here, let's have the developer answer the question- Okay... for clarification.

Hi. I'm Dave W..., Vantage Engineering Service, engineer for the project. This was a subdivision that was, I think, the first one under the conservation- It was... the conservation overlay- Conservation overlay subdivision... subdivision. And the ordinance as adopted required a system of connecting walking trails, which is why we provide them on the plan. The ordinance didn't specify what constituted a walking trail, just said a walking trail. So the preliminary plans and every file since then has shown those walking trails. The process for not having to install the walking trails would mean that we would have to submit a revised, a new plan, and the board would have to approve the plan, and the plan would not show the walking trails

Would this, would the plan show concrete sidewalks then?

No. No, it would... I think the issue, because this same ordinance was adopted in Silver Spring Township, which had the... which I live, and which had the walking trails throughout a open space development. People that bought lots in the subdivision didn't like the fact that they could have somebody basically walking right next to their backyard any hours of the day. Mm-hmm. So the township revised an ordinance and took out the walking trail aspect. I'm not telling you one way or the other, but I'm just saying, for us not to have to provide the walking trail, we'd have to come back in and the supervisors would have to approve or revise plan, amended plan that didn't show those walking trails.

Was that, that wasn't your question, though?

My question- Go ahead. I'm just trying to find out where it stands. You were- Because our HOA meeting, I think it was about two years ago- Right, right... we were told that... Again, when I bought it, it showed the walking trail- Yeah... on it, and I was told there was gonna be a vehicle path, you know, great, great, great.

Right. And then it never

happened, and then I was told there was a very small bond put up, and it was just gonna be a grass walking path. Yeah. That was it. There was no... And I'm thinking, "Well, that was really misleading." Again- This-... shame on me for not knowing, so I'm just trying to find out where it stands, because we were told it was not happening.

That's not true. This was brought up at the Planning Commission meeting, and the developer responded that the walking trails are simply going to be a mowed area, and they will be installed when the last building lot is built upon. Am I correct, Elizabeth?

Yes. What we had stated was that they would be done whenever the final phase was done so they all would connect.

So you would have one connecting loop, everything connected?

Yes. And Chris, I believe what you're talking about is there was a discussion on the HOA that we don't want it. I said that you guys would have to go to the township to see if it can be removed.

Yeah, I don't recall that at all, but thank you.

But

I- So it is gonna move forward, just so I understand what's happening where I live. Okay. I appreciate the clarification.

Thank you. No problem.

So I move that we approve the final subdivision plan for Cumberland Range Estates, Phase 6-

Second

... subject to the following conditions.

Oh, yeah, there's documents there.

The nine conditions, as read into the record:

1. That the applicant satisfies all comments and conditions of the township engineer, Bud Grove, PE, in a written review letter dated 8/7/2026 in a manner acceptable to township engineer, subject to his final review.

2. That the applicant satisfies all comments and conditions of the Middlesex Township Municipal Authority in a written review letter dated 8/27/2026 by Maxine Stoner, PE of JHA, in a manner acceptable to the MTMA engineer, subject to his final review.

3. That the applicant satisfies all comments and conditions of the MTMA in a written review email dated 8/26/2026 by Rory Morrison, MTMA authority manager, in a manner acceptable to the Middlesex Township Municipal Authority, subject to his final review.

4. That the applicant satisfies all comments of the Cumberland County Planning Department in a written report dated 7/6/2025 for plan number P26-434.

5. That the applicant satisfies all approvals, waivers, and conditions of plan approval for the preliminary major subdivision plan for Cumberland Range Estates and the stormwater management plan for Cumberland Range Estates, as imposed by action of the Middlesex Township Board of Supervisors on June 3rd, 2015, and stated in a letter from the Middlesex Township zoning officer to DGK Real Estate Group, LP, dated June 5th, 2015.

6. That the applicant must show on this plan for Phase 6 all required public improvements approved on the preliminary plan, including location and widths of proposed walking trails. A note must be added to the plan detailing when and how the proposed walking trails will be built and how they will be maintained until they are turned over to the HOA.

7. That for Section 710.E.2.A of the Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance Number 8-2017, as amended, and Resolution 2006-3, the applicant pays the Middlesex Township the required fee in lieu of dedication of park and recreation areas for the residential subdivision of $750 per dwelling unit, times five lots, per dwelling unit equaling $3,750, prior to the plans being signed by the township and released for recording.

8. That the applicant enters into a developer's agreement with Middlesex Township regarding public improvements and posts financial security for required public improvements, as-built plans, and engineering inspection fees for this plan to the township in an amount acceptable to the township engineer and form acceptable to the township solicitor prior to the plans being signed by the township and released for recording.

9. That when the plans are released by Middlesex Township for recording at the Cumberland County Office of Recorder of Deeds, the applicant records all plan sheets of the plans.

Is that... Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Question.

I have a question on that. You included the planning department comments.

She's talking Cumberland County planning, yes. Yeah.

Number two says, "The township should determine if lighting is necessary along the four-foot walking trail."

Planning commission, that was discussed. The planning commission felt that, if I remember right- That

it wasn't necessary... that it was not necessary. Okay. I just wanted to double-check on that.

And that was also my recollection of attending that planning meeting is that they were fine without lighting.

Okay. Yeah. That's... I just wanted to make sure that was clear. And then the other thing on there was that there's two trees that may be in a sight distance.

Well, I don't know offhand without looking at the plan which two trees they're talking about, but- Well, they're on here. Okay.

Maybe just be shifted.

What happens is they will resubmit the plan. We check the plan versus the conditions of plan approval. So one of the things we do is we will check the plan against the Cumberland County comments, and we will determine if that comment is correct. Okay. And if so, we'll ask Dave to move the trees out of the- So we can just see a triangle... sight triangle. It clears sight triangle. They're just on the edge of them. Right.

Okay. All right. That's all. Thank you. Thank you for the clarification.

I have a comment. Oh, yes. Please. Kelley Brickey, Elizabeth Way. I'm also a member of the planning commission. I was present at the meeting when it was discussed, and the planning commission had a concern about the vegetation height of the walking path. It was felt that 12 inches was too high. You're walking basically through pasture as opposed to a walking path, so that, I didn't hear that that was called out in one of the conditions.

That's a good point. The height of the vegetation really should be defined. As Dave pointed out, when this plan was approved, we're going way back to the initial conservation design specifications, and it was rather vague. The height of the vegetation in the walking path should not exceed, in my opinion, absolutely maximum six inches, but preferably three to four inches would be the height. And that, Mr. Chairman, I think should be defined in your recommendation.

Mr. Chairman? Well, I guess the question is since this is phase six- Mm-hmm... and the trail will not be installed until the entire development is complete, do we have time to address this prior to installation, when we discuss phase five? It should be. Yes, we will. It should be addressed with

... the development... now... at all. It says developments.

So in, like-

Just a motion and a second.

Right. We want to amend your motion for the second, and it has those same conditions, but also a note on the plan to indicate what the height of the green space or green area-

Height of the vegetation in the walking paths

... be between three and four inches.

Right. And from an HOA standpoint, I'm just making a suggestion. When you have your HOA meeting, please, you can bring this up that it can be put on for the entire development. Yes.

We'll do that. Thank you.

Under our current ordinance, 2-202, it

specifies that the height can no longer, or has to be under the height of six inches. So it has to be six inches or smaller. Or less. All right. So for a walking trail, three to four inches at a maximum should be fine.

Thank you. Is that something the board needs to be specific about, the height of the grass- It should... on the walking trail? It should. I think it should, yes. Yeah

yeah.

As a plan note.

Clear intent.

Okay.

Robynn Eppley, Beagle Club Road. I'm also a member of the planning commission. I'm just gonna add in here, and it's just a comment to this discussion. There are within my own family's farm and a very close friend's farm, we keep the perimeters of our farm mowed so that we have our own personal walking trails on our property. And I can tell you that they're kept just like as if you were cutting the grass in your yard. They are that low. And we do that for reasons of ticks and all other types of insects that you would get by using walking trails.

So it's just a comment. I'm just letting you know what I personally, what we personally do on our farm and our friends that have a big farm, that's how we approach this so that it makes it a nice walking trail. Thank you.

Thank you. That's what we do on our farm as well. We keep the paths cut to about three inches, as code requires. So we have to make a- There's no vote taken on a motion.

Well, someone make a motion. So do you make an amended motion?

To include, as you stated previously-

Mm-hmm... to include a note on the plan, the walking path will have a height of between three and four inches. Is that correct?

That's correct, yep.

So we have three to four inches from the sidewalk. So we'll have to- Just do a motion for that. Yeah. Okay. Do a motion to- I do have one item on that... amend and continue- They like that. Yeah. Yes.

So right now the green space is cut every other week. And it's something the homeowners may wanna think about, because the homeowners are ultimately gonna be paying for this. And I know the green space is cut every other week. They may wanna consider having that cut at the same time, otherwise they're gonna have their landscapers in there once a week to keep it...

My just my comment on that- Right... I think that's an HOA decision. Yeah. Not a board decision.

Well, then can it be from a HOA decision, on the height?

No.

Yeah.

This is my rec- That, this is a... What we're talking about is a design issue that is relevant to the subdivision plan.

Okay. Well, then the board will make the decision for the HOA.

Well, the board has just-

There's a motion before the board-

Yes, right

... to make a motion that we amend our previous motion regarding the final subdivision plan for Cumberland Range Estates Phase 6. We're adding the following condition, that the walking trail be mowed to a- Height... height of- Between three and four inches... between three and four inches. And that will appear as a note on the plan. Do I have a second?

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye. Okay. Thank you everyone who, you know, the residents for asking for clarification on that.

Next is discussion of possible motion on paving and dedication of streets for Cumberland Range Estates, Phase 2, 3 and 4. Bud, you wanna talk about that? I know you have a-

I have a report

... report that I did review

yesterday. I did a lot of research on this. This, mainly because this project dates back, I think the original preliminary plan was around 2014. Mm-hmm. And although the development, in my opinion, is a good development, it has taken a while to get to this point. So I'm gonna try to be as brief as I can. I thought it was important to include some history in this report. First of all, from what I understand in talking with Elizabeth, that she is willing to pave Phases 2 and 3. If you all recall, we're talking about the loop, what I call the loop streets.

There's an entrance and exit on the, there's a northern entrance and exit, and there's a southern entrance and exit, both on North Middlesex Road. And there are one, two, three streets that create a loop to connect all of it together, in Phases 2, 3 and 4.

So

the streets in those phases have been constructed up to the point of wearing surface. The inch and a half coarse bituminous wearing surface has not been applied to the streets on any of those phases. The streets are in relatively good condition. Otherwise, before anything is paved, we will do an inspection with the contractor to repair any minor, that need repaired. But right now, vehicles, public or private, use the entire loop as if they were public streets. So there's also developers agreements in place for all three phases, and in those agreements are completion dates for when all the improvements have to be completed.

In Phase 2, it was July 6th, 2021. In Phase 3, it was December 29th, 2022. In Phase 4, it's May 31st, 2024. So relative to completing all the improvements, which includes the wearing surface, the development is in default relative to that item. However, there is a section in the Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance that this plan was approved under, and it was approved under what I call the old ordinance, the 1990 Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance, that reads, and I quote

"The wearing course on all streets proposed to be dedicated to the township shall not be placed until at least 75% of the lots within the development have been built upon, or upon the expressed desire of the board of supervisors,"

unquote.

Phases 2 and 3 are completely built out, 100%. Phase 4- Five of the nine building lots are completed, so that's 55.6% as opposed to the required 75%. So there is a difference between what was in the improvement agreement date and as a practical matter, completing the building lots, which I'm going to assume, not advocating, is a function of the market. Okay. Now let's talk about the street condition. Phase two, when it was submitted, it was submitted as a 1,000-foot-long street with a temporary cul-de-sac. It exceeded our ordinance for cul-de-sacs, although it was a proposed temporary. The developer did not ask

for a waiver of that.

However, the board of supervisors resolved that violation by requiring the developer as a condition of approval to construct an interior loop, in other words, an official loop, back to North Middlesex Road by extending each internal street to do so, and to be included as part of the public improvements on the final subdivision plan for the next phase, phase three, which was an extension of phase two. That condition was agreed to, and it was completed satisfactorily. Phase three came in, and it extended that street, Elizabeth Way, another 850 feet. So now, to an intersection at what's called James Lane at the far eastern end of the development.

So now we have a 1,900-foot-long street that technically is a dead-end street, without complete... If you don't complete the loop street. Included in phase three was about 211 feet of James Lane. The board conditionally approved that plan on December 29th 2017, and one of the conditions of approval of that plan was that the estimated construction cost for all the public improvements include the construction or completion of the loop streets, which would have been James Lane and what is now Sue Becker Drive from James Lane out to North Middlesex Road. That would have completed the loop. And those improvements would be included in a bond so that we had security to make sure that it was done.

That condition was accepted and completed satisfactorily. The condition at that time did not say that it must be constructed, but we had the security for it to be constructed. Then came phase four. Phase four was a design for the rest of James Lane to the intersection of Sue Becker Drive, and then from Sue Becker Drive out to North Middlesex Road. That actually physically completed the loop, which you see today. So the entire loop is built. The condition of approval was that it be secured financially to make sure that it was built. And as I reported earlier, it is built with the exception of the inch and a half wearing surface.

Now-

Just the top surface.

Just the top surface. It's usable, it's drivable, it's passable, but it doesn't have the inch and a half topping. Relative to security for all of this, we've heard me talk about each phase having security. Presently, the township is holding letters of credit from the developer's bank for holding $55,669.50 in a letter of credit for phase two, for holding $110,523.99 for the improvements in phase three. And incidentally, the phase two improvements also included that major stormwater management basin that's on the east side of Sue Becker Drive. Phase four, we are... On June 1st 2022, the supervisors voted to reduce the letter of credit down to, from $556,860 down to $411,071.

We have in our file the letter of credit for $556,860. We do not have a letter of credit for the $411,071. Those letters of credit, and Eileen and I looked at them, are automatically renewable. So we would have to make an assumption that they're still good. So we're holding a considerable amount of money at this point. So as I said, all the conditions of plan approval for everything else have been completed. The only violation is the default dates for completion of, in each phase. And you heard me read those earlier, and we're talking about phase four being the latest, was to be completed by May 31st, 2024.

Now, as a solution to this, I talked a little bit about possible solutions. The board of supervisors will have to make the decision on this, on Elizabeth's request to pave only phases two and three. I say that the developer can pave phases two and three, and can dedicate them to the township, even though they are... They would still... Even though they're connected to phase four, which is sufficiently constructed, technically phases two and three end in a dead-end street, and we end up with substandard streets, even though phase four can be used as a practical matter. And in order to do this, it could present, I don't know, I'm not an expert in street maintenance, an issue for the road department in maintaining those dead-end streets.

They're technically dead-end streets, but physically are not dead-end. So something would have to be worked out with the developer, some sort of an agreement relative to maintenance and access to the streets in phases two and three for maintenance, and especially for snow plowing. Yeah. Because there would be no place, there's no cul-de-sac, there would be no place to push the plowed snow and to stack it. Okay, so there's a possibility that we could allow that paving, accept the dedication of those streets subject to an agreement with the developer for us to use the non-dedicated street in phase four for access to the dedicated streets.

The other option is, as you heard me say earlier, is that even though only 55.6% of the lots in phase four are completed as opposed to the requirement of 75%, which you heard me say earlier is probably a function of the market, I'm assuming that that's the case, the board still has the option to require the developer to pave the wearing surface on phase four if the board so desires. That's my report.

So let's see.

But on your option one, if those streets are dedicated, would the township receive liquid fuel funds?

No. The township would not, and that's in my report, would not receive liquid fuel funds. And if I recall, Zach is aware of that. And if I recall, Zach, correct me if I'm wrong, Zach was willing, in order to get the streets paved, to sacrifice the liquid fuels money until such time as those streets became standard, which would be at the completion of the streets in phase four. I think you're talking a couple thousand dollars.

It was just a little over $1,000- $1,000... in liquid fuels that way we'd receive. But it would be my assumption that phase four would be coming pretty soon after that for dedication. As far as the maintenance issue, there would not be a maintenance issue. Phase four, even though it would be private, it's still a public right of way, so we could still access that. Obviously, we would not maintain it, but we would just drive into that area to turn around and then drive back into the roads that are dedicated to the township to maintain them. I don't believe there'd be any issue with emergency access.

There's obviously you could, again, use the public right of way even though it's a private, they own, to access those areas. But I think the only issue may be school buses. I don't think they're allowed to access privately owned roads, so that might have to be a discussion with them, but they would have access to Elizabeth and that portion of James. Yes, they would have access

to Elizabeth and that portion of James. That's correct. Of the units in phase four, Elizabeth, what? One, two, three of them I think are occupied. I think two of them are for sale, are built but for sale.

Yes, you're correct.

Okay.

Public comment?

Do I need to go? Okay.

Yes.

Ah.

Look at all that exercise you get.

I do it every day. Kelley Brickey, Elizabeth Lane. There is a... Because it's a younger neighborhood, there are elementary school children that take the school bus to Middlesex Elementary School, and there's, I think, at least for the elementary kids, there's like four bus runs a day or four stops a day, and they stop on Middlesex Road where Elizabeth dead ends into Middlesex Road. So you've got your kindergarten runs, you've got the all-day school, like your first through fifth graders, and then you've also got the middle school buses as well. We've been told that there's an issue with school buses utilizing private roads, and that school buses would have to be in a position of doing K turns or some other kind of maneuver if they came down Elizabeth and James to get kids, or wherever.

I don't know that they would do stops at every house like they do on Middlesex Road, or if they would just, you know, top of the street, middle of the street. I don't know how they would do that. There have been issues with cars on Middlesex passing school buses- I

know

... when kids are loading. I mean, the stop sign is out on the bus, the lights are flashing. It's not a daily occurrence, but parents are having to walk their children across because cars don't observe the school bus signage. And that's, I think they want the, you know... It's critical. It's not that we're looking for... I mean, we have access to our homes through the roads that are built. The school bus and the children's safety has become quite an issue over the last couple of years.

Thank you. Thanks. You're so right. Any other public comment?

It's a very nice development and I certainly appreciate what the developer has done. You know, residents take nice care of their homes. It's an attractive development. I did drive there just a few weeks ago to take the loop. It certainly would be a much nicer development if there was a wearing course on the entire loop. As Bud stated, we do have a developer's improvement agreement. Deadlines have passed for phase two, three, as well as four. Four passed more than two years ago. I know it's certainly up to the Board of Supervisors to require a wearing course on phase four as well as phase two and three.

And my personal recommendation would be to finish the loop, phase two, three, and four, and put a wearing course all the way around the development. I agree with you. So I will make a motion that we, maybe the supervisors or the solicitor wants to-

I'm sorry to interrupt. Will the developer do that?

Not this year.

Yeah, the option is- I will do-... for the board to call on the security and do it themselves, 'cause you're in default on the three agreements.

Well-

And for some deficiency, you'd be responsible for it.

I came to the board two years ago and wanted to do phase two and three, and I was told no. And-

The board has agreements with you, three of them, that you're in default with for.

I totally understand that.

Well, the board understands that, too. So I'm going to you, I'm gonna ask you to request. I apologize for interrupting the board on this. Either you do it or the board will do it. Well- And you're telling us you don't wanna do it?

No, that's not what I'm saying.

Then what's your plan for-

My plan-... paying us?... is to do phase two and three, and then next year do phase four when I have the appropriate funds, because of what liquid fuels has gone up and what asphalt index has gone up, it's gonna cost me $108,000 to do phase two and three.

I-

I have not even got a quote for phase four yet. And we're at 55% in phase four of the construction, and I was told we were to do the road at 75%. We're not there. I understand. You guys are bringing up school buses. School buses are the problem throughout the whole township on Middlesex Road, not just in front of Elizabeth Way.

So I just wanna be clear in what you're telling the board. Okay. You're not gonna do it? Waited for two years.

No. My plan is to do it next year, 2027. My plan is to have the whole subdivision done, completed at the end of 2027.

So I have just a question. In order for you to do that next year, it would

require the board to modify the

improvement agreement for phase four to extend the deadline from May 31st, 2024 by another year? So essentially you're saying you need one more year?

Yes. I need one more year.

But in the meantime, you would pave phases two and three?

Yes, I wanted to do that two years ago. I'm more than happy to do phase two and three. I think the residents waited long enough to get the top coat for phase two and three.

Question for the solicitor, can the board put a timeline on paving and dedication of streets?

Absolutely.

If the developer's in default, you can do that. I'll make a motion that for Cumberland Range Estates, phases two, three and four, that the Board of Supervisors desires the final wearing course on every phase with paving and dedication of these streets to be done by the end of 2026. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Next, I think the discussion possible motion on the RFP for trash services. I don't think the solicitors had time to review that yet. I did review it. Okay. There were some questions asked in the form that I had.

I'm not sure if they're gonna be resolved, but I'm otherwise fine with the form.

Okay. So township staff has worked on a draft that we have sent to the solicitor to review. We would like to get the RFP advertised and begin to get that timeline rolling. I know in previous contracts it has run kind of into the holiday season when actually decisions were made. So we're trying, we actually bumped it up by a month trying to get these decisions made hopefully sometime in November, once they have a final contract. There have been a few things that they recommended. So we did meet with I believe four different trash contractors. Kinda interviewed them, got some suggestions from them.

One was longer contract terms. So the current contract we had was actually just a three-year contract, no extensions to that. So we're looking to do maybe a longer term, so maybe a three-year with two one-year extensions, or maybe a five-year. I talked with the solicitor about that, maybe a five-year contract with two one-year extensions. Also we're looking at the smaller totes. So the typical tote's like a 96 gallon, somewhere 95, 96 gallon, the larger trash tote. Seeing if they would offer, obviously your recycling tote's sometimes 65, 70 gallon toter. But then they also offer a much smaller toter, it's 34 to 36 gallon.

So we're looking at trying to offer those at a reduced price for the township residents. The current contract has the option for them, but it is actually not at a reduced price. One of the other things, the current contract we actually went to a once-a-month bulk pickup. Speaking with the trash contractors, it actually kinda worked in reverse. We thought it would maybe cut down on the cost, but what they're finding is that one day they're making multiple trips throughout the township rather than just coming once. So they're actually recommending maybe go to a once-a-week bulk pickup, and then those come through.

They're hoping the volume of the bulk pickup then would be something they can kinda complete in one trip. So they would be doing, again, once-a-week bulk pickup for that. And then a pre-bid meeting. I think since COVID we really haven't been doing pre-bid meetings. But that was something that we did add to the contract this time, actually to have the contractors here to go over the stipulations of the pre-bid meeting, so that they, before bids are accepted, so.

Is that a public meeting or just a private meeting with township staff?

Just township staff, and I believe the solicitor if we can- Okay... request his presence.

Can I make a comment? Sure.

Chris, given Cumberland Range Estates, I'd certainly advocate for the option to have a smaller bin at a lesser price. I know multiple people in the community that don't fill it, and they're really frustrated with the price. And again, they have called and asked for a small bin. Yeah, we can offer it to you, same price.

So appreciate you considering that.

Thank you.

Ma'am, are you talking about the smaller bins for the trash?

Yeah, smaller bins for the trash- Okay... at a lower price. Gotcha. The current vendor offers it, but you're still paying the same price. Right. So that doesn't help the people who by themselves in the elderly. Correct.

Yeah.

All right. And that's something that's been raised by residents before. It'd be nice to have other options for- Mm-hmm... particularly older residents who don't create a lot of trash, or people that are just a single- We

even have the tag-a-bag. You don't even have to take a sticker with the tag.

Yeah. Well, and the problem with the tag-a-bag is that all these trucks now are automated. Right. There's not someone hanging off the back of a trash truck that can throw that in anymore, so I think you understand that that's just not available. And certainly it's nice when you have the other options. It'd be nice to have that other option at a lower price, but those are things that when we put out the RFP we have discussions that we can talk to them about. So I'll make a motion we approve the RFP for trash services. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Now on to page two, continue discussion, possible motion of request to release maintenance security for Jack Williams Land Development in the amount of $27,483.21. Page. She's got- Me... a question.

I didn't realize there was a page two. Yeah, there's a page two. I thought we were going to adjourn. So I just have a question to ask before we- That's the idea, sure... before we vote. I've had enough too.

Okay.

I think I've seen this.

Bud, do you wanna- Yes, I can report on this again this month. During the past month, the developer who actually has Mavis now doing, since Mavis has the property, have gone out and cleaned out and removed the silt sacks that were in the inlets on Army Hall Road. They did that yesterday. I haven't been out to see or how it was done, but I talked to the contractor and he said there was a lot of silt in those storm drains. However, they have not installed the bollards. I talked with them the day before yesterday and yesterday, and we received a letter from Mavis, dated yesterday, requesting another 30 days.

They have yesterday signed a contract. I guess the issue was they went out and got estimates for the bollards and there were three estimates and there were debates on which estimate to select and so on and so forth. And yesterday they signed a contract and I sent that contract over to Zach with JD Renovations. They're out of Saylersburg, I believe

and I spoke with

that contractor yesterday and he said he would try to get... He would order the bollards immediately, and he would try to get them installed within two weeks. However, the Mavis Tire people, the CEO, has asked for an extension of 30 days before we would pull their security to do the bollards ourself. So they do have a signed contract.

The decision the board has to make is

you know, going forward, do you trust that they would get this done? And my response or my thoughts are, I have talked with the contractor personally, and I think we can trust them. So I'm gonna have to recommend that, to be honest with you, we give them another 30 days.

I guess.

Yeah. That makes sense, and if in 30 days things aren't corrected, then we- Then that's it... we have security. That's it. We'll do it ourselves. Okay. So I'll make a motion that we allow an extension of 30 days on the request to release maintenance security for Jack Williams Plan Development in the amount of $27,483 and 21 cents. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Discussion possible motion approving monthly maintenance contract for website update services to Green Tea Design. Was that- Yes. So

Green Tea Design, they have created a new website for the township. It is gonna be going live on Monday. It's very similar to the website that's there now. There will be some extra features. There'll be a bar across the top that'll have like the different boards. You'll be able to click on that bar, and it'll drop down. You'll be able to see the agendas and the minutes. So everything's kind of right there on the front page. But overall, it'll look very similar. Green Tea has done some training with the township staff. So the township staff will do a lot of the daily updates and things that are needed, emergency similar to yesterday.

I don't know if anybody's trash didn't get picked up yesterday, but trash hauler contacted us late in the day and said they had a breakdown, didn't get to. So adding those things to the website can still be done in-house. So you actually have a proposal there, and they gave us a couple proposals. Obviously, the more they need to do, the higher the price would be. But the township staff feels that level one, so just, you know, the very essential kind of updates, will be left up to Green Tea. Everything else will be done by the township staff. They're a good- So be- They're a good outfit...

under dollar, yeah, $100 a month. And again, that's for the essential updating of

the website. Is that what your recommendation is? Yes. Recommendation would be level one. Is there... Are the options... I assume there would be hopefully in the future that, you know, if people wanna sign up for email alerts, that we can register people's emails and send out alerts? Yes. So you're just- As opposed to-... clicking the online-... requesting, you know, the residents, "Hey- Yeah... you gotta check the website," you know, it... Can we collect- Email addresses... email addresses for residents who are interested, and we can push out alerts or concerns? Yeah. We can discuss that. Yeah. Okay. I think that'll be a nice thing for the, you know-

The residents

... continued ability to communicate with the residents. So I will make a motion to approve the monthly maintenance contract for website update services with Green Tea Design at the level one. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Discussion possible motion on hiring a new highway department employee. Zach? So we

did have a highway employee who resigned, found employment opportunity elsewhere. So that we are currently looking to fill that position. We did interview two individuals. We're actually... Well, not... So there'll be no action here today, but I'm requesting, we actually advertise this position, see if we can get more applications in, and do some more interviews and try to find a qualified person to fill this position.

Think we can make a motion on that?

Sure.

Yeah.

Sure.

Okay. Well, I'll make a motion that we advertise for hiring a new highway department employee. Second. All those in favor? Aye.

Discussion possible motion approving purchase of a 2013 Ford F-650 bucket truck from City of Newark, Delaware.

Yeah, so Newark, Delaware, they actually had two bucket trucks on Municipal Bid. The one bucket truck I did bid on and actually, it did sell. We weren't the highest bidder on that one, but there was one that did not meet the reserve. Both trucks were very similar in condition. I've reached out to them. I haven't heard back. My request was maybe trying to purchase it either outright, through an intermunicipal agreement, or possibly if they put it back on Municipal Bid, try again and try to be the winning bid, and actually take it over the reserve the next time that it is on Municipal Bid.

But if they are interested in an intermunicipal agreement, I would like to bring that before the board, possibly to award that purchase. So two questions. How far

off were you from the winning bid?

I was just second. And so I think it was $100 that I was off. But it went... The other one was like 22. I think the other guy would've continued bidding. It's one of those things, how far will they go? But I stopped bidding. And I believe I told you guys I was gonna go to 21,000. It went to 22,000, and I think it was sold for 22,100.

And what would this... Would this replace equipment we currently have, or would this allow us to do something different than what we currently can't do? I can answer that.

Yeah, so we... Years ago, we had an old bucket truck. And Don, maybe you remember, we got it for free.

We got it for free.

Got it for free from a telephone company.

What's his name? John MooMa. That had, uh, whatever electric, whatever, donated it to us. And to hear the crew talk about going up in that was amazing. They said... I'm just trying to remember what Kevin said. "Oh, it only had about a foot of play." Yeah. I mean, it would... And it was determined unsafe- Yeah... even by the- Yeah... maintenance action.

So currently, we do not have a bucket truck. But there's... Right now, we contract out anything that needs done, specifically traffic lights. I mean, sometimes it's- Yeah... just simply actually replacing a bulb in one of the traffic signals that we could take care of, but obviously we have a traffic light contractor that come in to do that. The streetlights along Route 11, which are 50 foot high, the township actually maintains those as well. So similar, we have to call somebody right now to actually come in, even if it's just changing a light bulb, we have to call somebody to come in and do that.

This bucket truck would- Help... yeah, help assist in doing some of the simple things out there on Route 11.

Well, it gets used an awful lot, too, in trimming the trees along the roads and stuff. What's a

what's a new bucket truck cost that would be similar to this? Obviously, this one's quite old. Close to

100,000. More than that. Yeah, I think you're looking probably about 300 to $400,000 for a new bucket truck.

Okay. How, how many miles does this, or hours does this have on it, do you know?

So it had right around 45,000 miles, 7,000 hours on the truck. Okay.

It's broken.

Such a- Solicitor, we- Just a quick question. Do you know what engine's in that? I believe it's Cummins. The Ford 650 has the Cummins in it. The Ford six liter. That one has that. What's the reach of the arms, or whatever? 65 feet on this one. 65, okay.

What'd you say? Did you say 65? 65 feet. Quick question for the solicitor. If we make a motion to approve this purchase, should we put a maximum dollar amount?

Yeah.

All right. And so you went up to 22

yeah

... thousand? Okay. Would this save us money with the contract for people changing... You know, having these companies come in to change streetlights, and...? Yes. Yeah. So it would save on those contracts, plus allow us to do other things such as, you know, Don said, trimming trees or doing other- Okay. Do you think 23,000 is a good target number? I believe so. Yeah. So I'll make a motion to approve the purchase of a 2013 Ford F-650 bucket truck from City of Newark, Delaware, in an amount not to exceed $23,000. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Discussion of possible motion to award sale of 2017 Mack Granite tri-axle dump truck.

So we had our tri-axle dump truck placed on Municipal Bid. We did have it set at a reserve. We had several other townships actually come and look at it, something that there's a lot of townships were looking for before we get into the winter season. And the truck did sell to Moore Township on Municipal Bid for, I'll have to look up the number. It was over $200,000, $200,100, I believe it was.

Cost us almost 300. Cost them 2. So this is, it says discussion possible motion to award the sale, but it's already sold?

You guys still need to approve it, but yeah. So it was at auction. But you guys still need to approve the sale.

Okay. I'll second that. I'll make a motion to approve the sale of the already sold 2017 Mack Granite tri-axle dump truck. Do I have a second? Second. All those in favor? Aye. All right. We need to

probably call Barry and let him come over and drive it one last time. Okay. The plow's not going with that, is it?

We are selling the plow with it. We did keep the salt spreader as a spare- Yeah... spreader for us. Okay.

Any other staff or comments, or...?

Little bit of time for, I would say, questions

I forgot to introduce myself earlier. Arlene Darlington, Wertzville Road. Another process question. So when the quarterly newsletter is being put together, who does that?

It's multiple people. So typically it's our administrative assistants in the office. They get together with Mark, Gary, they reach out to the tax collector, the water authority. I mean, they reach out to everybody, and they bring that information together, compile it, and then they put it together.

Is there an opportunity for an individual to submit a request, and if so, to whom would that go?

So we have had individual groups prior to that. Again, it depends on how much is compiled, whether we can fit it into the newsletter or not. But yeah, if you wanna reach out to me-

So it's not a hard no. If- It just depends- You'd be open to it depending on- Correct... whatever your parameters are? Yeah

yeah.

Okay. So and then it has to be printed and then mailed, so what's the timeline for, you've got all your ideas, you've got your content, somebody has to review it, I assume.

Correct, yeah, so they review it. The board will actually review it. And the fall newsletter's actually already prepared and ready to go. I believe it might actually already be at the printer. So it probably already- Already done... already- Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we got that one. So- Yeah. Where were you, where have you been? Okay. So typically, yeah, it's about two months ahead of time- Oof, okay... they'll begin. All right. So it won't be too long, and then, yeah, they'll be looking at the winter newsletter.

Okay. Then that makes... It's curious to me then regarding Mr. Goodhart's resignation, if the content was already approved, it was collected, it was known, it was approved by the board, why are we just finding out today? Or why is it being said that the resignation letter that was dated July 31st was just received today by the board and yet his resignation or a board vacancy appears on the newsletter? Something's... I'm missing something, or there's something not being stated clearly.

Yeah, so his resignation letter is dated July 31st. Mm-hmm. So he did notify the township staff of that resignation. Today was the first day that the board did see the letter of resignation.

The actual letter, but they were aware of the impending vacancy because he planned to resign? Yeah

they had- Yeah... rumor or word of that

yeah. Yeah.

Thank you. Now the other-

Okay. Because we were told a little bit differently on the August 19th meeting, and it kind of just doesn't sit well with me.

We really just want honesty and transparency.

We're... I'm not here to play games. Honesty is just so much easier. You don't have to have a really good memory if you just always tell the truth. If you lie, then you have to remember who you told what to and then backtrack if you have to try to cover your tracks. So I'm not pointing fingers at anybody, but let's just please treat us with respect. We treat you with respect, and I'm asking for honesty 'cause that's what you'll get from me, okay? Thank you. Have a great day.

I want to say something really fast about the clarify motion for February 27th, 2026. This is a, this amendment, that's approved by the board, but not for the resident because this amendment look like it's benefit for the county. That's why you clarify this, because the person who proposed the solar panel is Kirk Stoner, the same person involving in the comment with Justin Ross. I know him, the department. He's the director for that department, and he don't say anything about clarify the comment with Justin Ross when Justin Ross said that he talking with CCCD about the intentionally discrete plan. It's the same person.

You trust that person? He's the director for that department, and he don't come in here or clarify or whatever from the resident and say, "Okay, my department is not involving," but coming here request putting the solar panel, and you clarify the amendment when you say in February 27th other team. We don't trust that person. I don't know if the other resident trust that person, but I don't trust that person. Maybe you trust because, you know, I don't wanna say nothing like, you know, but you trust because he work in the county, and you vote. The Brenneman said that it's not conflict of interest.

Probably yes, but we have to verify the law. Something is involving.

Mr.

Gerber. Hi. Yes, Kyle Gerber, Bernheisel Bridge Road. I have a question about the community benefits agreement. Does the board intend to vote on the community benefits agreement on September 2nd, the upcoming Wednesday meeting? I

think it's gonna be on the agenda, yes.

Okay. Can I ask who drafted the community benefits agreement?

Well, the community benefits agreement initially was a work of township staff and things that have long been on wish lists for the township. And, you know, I had a large hand in trying to identify things that might benefit residents of the township. I did send out an email to Dean Severson from HRG yesterday to ask him, since the community benefits agreement is very open, the township isn't tied into anything. I said I think it would be a good idea for him when he puts out his public survey for the comprehensive plan, that he ask people what they would like to see in a community benefits agreement.

I've also asked him to put it on the agenda for the steering committee. The comprehensive plan is coming up in September. So it's a flexible document. Certainly can be reworked and can be changed. Obviously, it's all contingent on whether or not the PAX-1 will proceed or not proceed. So the community benefits agreement is certainly not set in stone at this point, but it is a flexible agreement, and it is certainly gonna be up to community input as to what happens if money should arise.

Sure, but you will be

voting to

to approve it as it stands likely on September 2nd?

It's on the agenda.

Okay. And it can be modified going forward.

You just said through the comprehensive plan that that might feed back into the community benefits agreement and might be updated over time? Correct. And the developer, PAX-1, would be okay with

potentially modifying the community benefits agreement as it goes forward? I think my understanding of the way the community benefits agreement would be worded is that they would, you know, have an amount of money, which they've currently identified as $14 million, for the township to use. They have some buckets that, you know, we've recommended, but it would really be up to the discretion of the township and its residents as to how it gets used, that they have no control of that money once it's been given to the township.

Okay. And again, going back to the last meeting on the 19th, the version of the community benefits agreement that was presented to the public, who drafted that? Who wrote up the language as it was presented to us?

This was a group effort. I know it was looked at by, you know, many staff members of Middlesex Township, the solicitor. So I think it was a group effort.

Okay.

It certainly wasn't a draft that we accepted from the developer.

Sure. Okay.

Um

if there is any type of, like, acceptance of a community benefit that might arise on September 2nd, will the township be providing drafts of the community benefits agreement, the developer's agreement, any other agreements that might be approved? Yeah, all

those drafts are gonna be available in printed form at that meeting. The master developer's agreement-

Okay

... the amendment to the master developer's agreement, the side letter agreement to the master developer's agreement, as well as the community benefits agreement, will all be printed out and available at that meeting.

Is it possible to have them sooner than that meeting? 'Cause that's not a

whole lot of turnaround time for people to actually read through them and kind of come up with meaningful comments. Sure. I guess that's something we'll have to discuss as a board. Okay. Certainly open to that idea. Like, even 24 hours would be helpful if that's possible. Sure.

Put it on the website.

I want to go back to Mr. Goodhart's resignation. I'm a little confused. So his resignation letter is dated July 31st. I don't think we've seen him at a meeting since June 26th. I believe there was, you know, Zach just said there was a notice that went to township staff when his letter was submitted, and yet the board, Phil, you pretty clearly stated on August 19th that you knew nothing about it. I'm just a little confused. It seems that either that wasn't entirely true, or you've been kept in the dark, which wouldn't make any sense.

Like, can you just verify what's

going on with that? This is the first time I've seen the letter. I've not talked to Mr. Goodhart since the last time he was at a public meeting. The date you have, that's what's on the minutes, and it appears accurate. But I haven't talked to him since that time. I haven't seen a letter. Certainly have heard murmurs that, you know, he was considering resigning. But either way, his resignation is not official until it is accepted by the board supervisors. If it's not accepted, it's deemed accepted after 45 days from the date that it is received.

Yeah. That makes sense. Jody asked pretty clearly to you, "Has Mr. Goodhart submitted retirement or an intention, an intended date to retire?" I suppose you're going to say no. You had not seen, like, an official submitted date, but you just said you'd heard murmurings, and I feel like that's kind of what we were getting at asking on August 19th. Like-

Well, I think how you stated what she said, I'm sure it's on your videos, that's not what she said. She said, "Has Mr. Goodhart resigned?"

Correct

And I answered, "No," because I have not seen a letter of resignation, I have not talked to Supervisor Goodhart, and he is not- Right... his letter of resignation has not been accepted by the board of supervisors.

Jody Shivell said, "Has Mr. Goodhart resigned from his position on the board of supervisors?" That's a yes or no question. You said, "No." She said, "Okay, has Mr. Goodhart submitted retirement or an intention, an intended date to retire?" And you said, "Not that I am aware of."

Correct.

I feel like the second question was Jody's attempt to get at the murmurings that you just mentioned. We're asking, where is Mr. Goodhart? We need full representation from the supervisors. He's been absent for two months, and if that's due to health reasons, I mean, we completely respect that. Like, he is entitled to privacy from the health perspective. But from a public representation perspective, we're entitled to knowing where our representatives, like, if our representatives are able to do their duty or not. And so I think at the one and a half to two-month mark, it's a fair question to say, like, "Is he coming back?

Have you heard anything about him coming back?" And I think to hear you say that you've heard murmurings, but answered no, just feels like it's not as transparent as we would- Mm... as we would like. And I'm not saying you flat out said something false. I'm not accusing you of that. But you said that respect is a two-way street, and transparency is a two-way street. And we're trying to do that and we're asking the same of the supervisors. Like, if we're asking where Mr. Goodhart is, we do not need to be given a complete analysis of his personal life and his health.

But a basic, "It seems like he will be back," or, "It seems like he will not be back," I think would be appropriate. Noted. Thank you. All right, that's everything for right now. Thank you for your time.

Thank you.

Board, is it all right if I would, the letter's actually addressed to the residents as well as the board and the staff. Is it okay if I post that on the website? I'll reach out to Bill just to verify first. Yeah. But then- Yeah.

Okay.

Hi, Jessica Smith. I had a question. Is this an appropriate time for general questions or just-

Well, are you a township resident or a township taxpayer?

I am a resident.

Of Middlesex Township?

Yes.

Okay.

Is this an appropriate time for, like, a general question? Sure. Okay. I'm wondering about a decommissioning plan for the data center potentially. I know it's been asked before, but with previous questions about community benefits agreement, if it could be worked into there or something. I'm just sort of thinking, which also maybe depends on who the tenant is. Like, if it's a governmental tenant, maybe then it's more likely that the data center will be operational and maintain operations, so maybe decommissioning is less of a priority. But with other potential tenants, it is, like, such a speculative industry in some ways at this point. And some experts are saying that, you know, not every data center can come online and survive. So is that something at all that you folks are considering?

That will be discussed and is in the master developers agreement. I can't remember if it's maybe in the side letter, I think, the master developers agreement. And again, we'll talk about the possibility of trying to get that out before the meeting as Mr. Gerber has requested, for time to digest what that means. But there is something in that draft of the master developers agreement that does address decommissioning as well as financial security.

Okay. So the decommissioning would be, like, clearing the land as well?

Well, that's something we'll talk about on Wednesday.

Okay.

It's very difficult to hold a data center to a different standard than, say, warehouses or factories. There's only one decommissioning plan that the state requires, and that's for the principal solar energy systems. They used to be under municipal control. The state in its current budget took that out of municipal control, and now it's under state control. I believe the township has an ordinance regarding decommissioning the cell towers. But otherwise, no other use has decommissioning, whether it's, you know, a factory, a million square foot warehouses that are all over our county.

None of those have decommissioning plans. Mm-hmm. It's just not something that is required by law, but it is something that we've referred as a concern from the residents and we have asked the developers to consider. And that will be presented in the master development agreement, I believe the side letter to the MDA.

Okay. So maybe this is redundant then if it'll be in the master planning agreement. But would that be, since there's not a way to regulate the decommission for data centers, like, specifically or exceptionally, I guess, is that something that would be appropriate for them to maybe add into the community benefits agreement?

I mean, the community benefits agreement is just strictly a voluntary donation from the developer- So that's only the 5 million... to the township to fund the township activities. So they're really two separate issues

I guess I was sort of wondering if that could be, like, a vehicle for a more robust decommissioning agreement. I understand that it's, like, not topical or super relevant to the community benefits agreement, but if that might be a way to get around. But then, of course, that is voluntary from the developers side.

Right. And I think in the governor's executive orders that just came out a few weeks ago, I think one of the things he was really advocating for was community benefits agreements between developers and data center operators, tenants, and communities in which they're in. And again, we're trying to make sure that the residents will have input into what that is, because it's written in a very open manner at this point. And that's when I, you know, had communicated with our consultant for the comprehensive plan is that, you know, let's put that on the survey that's going out to residents here soon.

You know, let's get resident input as to what they want, because we're not pigeonholed into doing anything with that money at this point.

Okay. And then I did have another question about the executive order. I know, like, maybe some things have been retroactively applied to PAX-1. Like, I think the fast-track permitting got pulled. Do you have a sense of, like, tenant disclosure if that executive order is now gonna apply here, and we'll be able to know the tenant of the data center?

Well, I think his executive order did ask, and again, the, this is an executive order, this is law at this point. But I think he did request to have tenant disclosure somewhere in the process of development, and that's one of the things that we've asked in our side letter to the master developers agreement, is it is time for the township and its residents to know who the tenant is. Mm-hmm. And that's gonna be an important issue and requirement in the future of any future approvals.

Okay. So right now that's something that the developers are withholding? Correct. Okay. And so they haven't made you folks aware of the tenant? Correct. Gotcha. Okay.

Okay

thank you.

Thank you.

Chris Peer, Cumberland Township. I think you may have answered my question, Bill. The community benefits agreement, I'm assuming that's part of the whole package. Is this just something completely separate than any agreements we have with PAX?

It is a separate freestanding agreement, yes.

So because you're saying it's fluid, it could change as we go forward. I think the community benefits agreement is pretty important to us as a community. You're already aware of everybody's concern about the environment. A lot of things happening in different townships if this does go through. So to me, I think it should be a tool to get them as much as we can for the community as a whole. And for this to be a fluid document that's gonna go along and thus to go ahead on September 2nd, approve one way or another what's happening, I think we're missing an opportunity here.

Well, I think it should play a more important part. You know, you're gonna go ahead and if it passes on September 2nd, they're gonna do what they wanna do, and then we're gonna come back in later on and say

"Oh, but we'd really like something else."

They don't have to do anything 'cause we're gonna already have given approval. So that's food for thought.

I think the community benefits agreement is really essentially an amount of money- Sure... that they're willing to give the township. What's fluid is what the township and its residents decide to do with that money moving forward. The amount is not fluid. The amount will be set- Of course... and will be signed in agreement- Right... if the PAX-1 project moves forward.

So the amount would be set. Correct. If we vote on September 2nd, that amount would be carved out. Correct. Okay, I'm not sure it's enough money, but just so. And Bud just stepped out, but my other question was, at the last meeting on the 19th, Bud referenced the fact that PAX-1 still owed us a substantial amount of money prior to any approvals be given in his interpretation of that. And then PAX says, "Oh no, we just have a conditional approval." Where do we stand on those monies? He said it was up to the board of supervisors whether or not they owed those funds now

or not. Yeah, I think that's obviously gonna be a discussion next week.

So next week we decide whether or not they have to pay us the money and when they have to pay it, and then we also decide whether we approve them or not? I just kind of think it sounds like they're already in debt to us for that money and they haven't paid it yet.

Oh, yeah.

You just held Elizabeth Mouse to that. Right. You know? She's indebted to us. So I just wonder how the board stands on that.

Right. Well, those are discussions that are occurring now between the board supervisors, solicitor, the engineers, and that discussion will be held next week.

I again request, as the gentleman before me has talked about, if we could have anything in writing ahead of time, because there's an awful lot at play here for September 2nd, an awful lot for people to absorb and be able to provide public comment on before you make your decision on September 2nd. So anything that can be put on the website available for you all to read ahead of time would be greatly appreciated.

Sure. And we have to, of course, get the agreement of the developer for that. But, you know, we'll certainly discuss it with them and we'll discuss it amongst the board and staff here at the township.

Yeah. And I understand we have a deadline, and they gave us September 2nd. But with that deadline we also have the opportunity to say no-

Understood

... if they're not providing the information or the payment or anything else that's required. If they're not checking off the conditions that we have, we can still say no regardless of what that condition is. That's our right, and I hope you consider that greatly. Understood. Thank you

So it's typical, like with any application for a developer, like when they submit it, they get the approvals here before the board. They don't have that check that day. So- Right... whether it be Elizabeth Nance or anybody. So those approvals are done, but nothing's signed until the township receives those financial securities and anything else that goes along with those conditions. All that has to be met before. And the approval's done on condition that all those details are met- Right... financial security's in place prior to actually signing and then recording any kind of land development plan. Thank you.

Mike Coulson, Oak Ridge Road. I understand that we are a Class II township, but some of the research I did, it appears we could have a referendum where we can have five supervisors instead of just three. Would that be something you would consider doing?

I guess we'll have to look into that. I know that the amount of supervisors or commissioners, however you are gonna call them, is dependent on the population of the township. Per square mile, yeah. So, well, no, it's total population. But- It's not per square mile. So we're in the 5,000 to 10,000 category, which indicates three supervisors. I would doubt that that's something that could be put up for referendum, but I'm not sure.

Well, I mean, I, that's what I read on Google.

But if you can-

Oh. Yeah. And of course some of that depends on, always when you're researching these things, to make sure you're in the correct state, because it does vary by state. But-

This is definitely Pennsylvania, but- Yes... I think one of the biggest criticisms I'm hearing is it's just two men making this decision. Now, I realize that under normal circumstances it would be three, but even three men as opposed to five people, I'd rather have five people instead of three.

Okay.

Earl Beam, Country Club Road. At the last meeting, Andrew was giving for the community benefits. Then he started to talk about for residents. Then he had some confusion. I'm glad to see Mr. Brenneman here, and the meeting was stopped. But he first started to make a comment about what they were gonna do for residents on Country Club Road, and he started to state about, well, checking, and that was it. Do you have a copy of that, what he was gonna tell the residents from Country Club Road- I-... that that could review?

Again, that's something that if we get their approval, then we'll discuss it at the board level. My preference would be to put it out there before the meeting so you and other residents have a chance to digest that. I'm sure you could reach out to Petri, and he may be willing to give you a copy of that. He won't share.

Look, I already tried yesterday.

Or

Tuesday.

Okay. But yeah, the hope is that, you know, they'll be agreeable to allowing us to put that out there prior to the meeting.

Okay, thank you.

Hi. I'm putting on my planning commission hat right now. And this is referencing- Of course, go answer it... this is referencing our meeting from Monday, August 24th. And I'm gonna talk about the zoning ordinance text amendment for the principal solar energy systems that Cumberland County's permitted. When this first appeared, and we first heard anything about it, it was at the board of supervisors meeting on July 31st. And Phil, at that time you stated that you had that Cumberland County had stated that the principal solar energy systems had previously been permitted in institutional districts, but they were removed during the most recent ordinance update, and that's true.

I've checked through all my five iterations that I have of the zoning ordinance, and in 2023 they were not allowed principal solar energy. In the iteration of January 2024, they were not allowed. It was not a permitted use for them. And then in February 2025, it was a permitted use, conditional use. And added into that was the agricultural, the institutional district, the light industrial district. Actually, it was a C-2 district, and we changed it to commercial C-1 after that. And then the industrial district. So they did appear that Cumberland County, because they're in the institutional district, they were given that in that iteration of February 2025, and that was the only time that they had that in our zoning ordinance.

Are those

draft ordinances you're looking at?

Yeah. Yes, I am. I have all the copies of them because I served on the steering committee- Sure... for the zoning ordinance rewrite. So I went and I researched my draft ordinances and compared them to the permitted use table, and that's what I found. So then in June 2025, that was removed. It was removed from the ag, and it was removed from the institutional. The only two districts that were left with that in June of 2025 for principal solar systems were now your industrial district and your commercial highway district C1, and that is what was approved in the final September 2025.

That's how that went through. It was removed at that time because the township supervisors wanted them removed. They wanted the ag and the institutional removed because of the issues that were going on at that time with the solar farms arrays in this area. And I think probably specifically it was because of the Deitch farm that really spurred that on. So what I'm questioning here is this: You stated on July 31st that after reviewing prior drafts and meeting minutes, there was no discussion or reason was found explaining the removal and suggested that it was a clerical error. Problem was a clerical error, and then you proceeded to schedule a public hearing on October 7th.

So, Mark also stated, confirming what I just said, on August 24th, Mark stated that he talked to the county about removing the INS district before it was done. He stated the board of supervisors removed the districts, the ag and the institutional, for the reasons that I stated. And leaving the commercial highway C1 and the industrial. So now we're gonna have a public hearing to grant the county to have that property to have a PSES system put there, and while there were no... The planning commission had no objections really to that piece of property having that because it does seem like it's a good location, and it's...

wouldn't really be bothering anyone. However, we just approved because the board of supervisors wanted it different. So it's been enacted since September 2025, and now we're gonna turn around and we're just gonna change it again, and I really think that's gonna be the outcome of it. But also, during this meeting, because there was such, planning commission, because of the institutional zoning, we looked at all the properties that fall under that, and one of the biggest concerns was the Carlisle Country Club. Everybody knows they have financial woes. They're trying to come out of that. But even with the conditional use, they could take the Carlisle Country Club and put a solar array farm there with...

if we make that change because that change for the county affects any group that falls under that district, and that's a concern. So based on that, and because that concern was discussed at the planning commission, we had a... Actually, we had a really good meeting, the planning commission this time. Everybody gave valuable input, very collaborative discussion. Walked away from that meeting really feeling pretty good. But here's another thing. At the planning meeting, Mark Carpenter stated several times when we were discussing what I just said about this seems like it's a good little spot, but concerns about everybody else that falls under that same district.

He stated several times that the land located off Army Heritage Drive should be spot zoned for a Cumberland County property to allow for a solar institution. And that's... It was kind of alarming to hear that because my understanding is we have a current pending lawsuit for spot zoning. So what are we talking about doing here? I want some clarity on that as a planning commission member.

So I went through all the meeting minutes for the board of supervisors-

Mm-hmm

... in 2025. And if you have documentation that the board of supervisors specifically discussed PSES and institutional that I didn't find, or you have documentation elsewhere, I would appreciate if you could share it with me, 'cause I have asked for all the, Zach, earlier this week, for all the draft zoning ordinances, because they're not readily available. So I've asked him for all those. They're looking for all that with all the communications, because it wasn't clear to me that there was any documentation that the Board of Supervisors had specifically recommended to remove PSES from institutional districts.

I know it was a long process, certainly appreciate your involvement in that. I was at the meeting where Mr. Larson had probably, I don't know, 10 to 13 items that he was concerned about-

I think it was more than that.

It was quite a few. Yes. And- It was like a page and a half... yeah, and removing PSES from institutional was not part of that, that I read, because I did re-read that a few times, and I did not see it in there. So if you have any documentation that I don't have, you mentioned about conversations- Yeah... with Mark Carpenter on that, that, you know, if you have written documentation... I'm not talking about the recent planning commission meeting, but any documentation that you just referenced, certainly like to see it. And, you know, that's why we have public hearings.

There's a public hearing in October on this matter. Mm-hmm. Nothing has been decided at this point. I know that's not your thoughts. You think it's already a done deal. But no, there's a public hearing and we'll hear public comment. I think public hearings are open to non-residents as well. So, you know, we'll hear from residents and non-residents about proposed zoning changes-

Well-...

at that public meeting.

Well, in reference to the zoning ordinance throughout that process, one of the things that came out in that process was specifically stated from Troy Truax, Michael Baker Group. And what I'm referencing is, we had so many iterations of the zoning ordinance that the planning commission, when they received the first document, of course, you know, it's like 500 pages long, and it's just glorious to go through something like that, but we did it. And then when it needed to be returned for changes that were based from either the township, township residents, Cumberland County, and the planning commission, it went back to Troy Truax.

And then when we received the next iteration, we were given that manual, and the planning commission wanted to know, we want a list of all the changes that took place in this manual. And we were told, "Well, that's just really hard to provide you with that information, so you can just review the document again." Well, that wasn't gonna happen, and that's really not the truth, that you haven't tracked your changes. So I was told, and I believe I have this in an email, that to provide us with those changes, that the document would end up being several hundred pages long. Because when a change is made in the ordinance, the comments are added by that change as to why it occurred.

So someone has that information. Someone has the breadcrumb trail. That was not given to the planning commission, but that's what Troy Truax, Michael Baker Group, stated, that everything that was changed in the ordinance book, that there is a comment added as to

why that occurred. Well, those are things that are certainly important for the board to know. That's why I did ask earlier this week for any communications and any draft ordinances- Mm-hmm... so I can follow that paper trail as well. My current review of that is that there was no public comment during a public meeting by the Board of Supervisors indicating they wanted PSES removed from institutional district. If you have evidence otherwise, I would certainly- Sure... the board would like to see it, so it's something we can take under consideration. And again, there'll be a public hearing in October, with a lot of input from residents and non-residents alike.

Well, the only evidence that I have are my iterations of proof for the different zoning ordinances, and that only appeared in one draft. And after that, it no longer did. But what I'm referencing here is that Mark Carpenter stated at our meeting on the 24th that he talked to the county, Cumberland County, about removing the INS district before it was done. Meaning we're telling them, giving them notice, that when this comes back up, when we do our next iteration in June of 2025, you don't have this anymore. That's how I interpreted what he said. And then he went on to state that the Board of Supervisors removed it for the same reasons that I just stated, and that it was the agricultural and it was the INS district.

So the only proof I have is my copies of all the ordinances. What Mark Carpenter stated on the 24th, either he had the conversation with the county or he didn't. I'm assuming he did because he told us he did. And just giving you an awareness of what Troy Truax told us when we wanted a list of all the revisions that had taken place in the ordinance because we needed a guideline. We're not gonna go back and try to figure out what you changed or what you didn't change. And then he stated for every change, he makes extensive comments, and that's why to give us a listing as such, it would take him some time to compile a list for us, which eventually he did.

But he had to exclude all the comments. We weren't interested in the comments. We were just interested in streamlining the task that had been given to us.

I appreciate your comments. I know I did talk to Mr. Stoner and he told me that he was not aware that this change was being made from the last draft until the final. I have to take him at his word. I know that Mark Carpenter is clearly aware that spot zoning is illegal, and I was at your meeting, and I don't remember Mark Carpenter stating that we should spot zone then.

Yeah, there you go.

We should spot zone that because Mark knows that spot zoning is illegal. Yeah.

There you go. I said that, I said we shouldn't rezone it. It would be spot zoning. Sorry if you didn't understand. Intent, right?

Yeah, right. Yeah, right. You know what is a spot zoning, and you all the time make a spot zone. Sure.

Sure.

Like data center.

Well, I think you've certainly exceeded the three-minute public comment. I appreciate what you said, and if you get further documentation you can provide it for the supervisors. Even if it's a narrative, that would be helpful.

You know, as... I'm just gonna add this. As far as Kirk Stoner not being aware of those changes, we had Cumberland County representation on our steering committee. Elizabeth Grant, she was there for all of our meetings. There you go. All of our meetings. When I look at this final document from Cumberland County where they reviewed our document, date reviewed says 4/17/2025, type of amendment, new zoning ordinance. Their recommendation at that time was disapproval for our zoning ordinance. This is a nine-page document. It's pretty extensive on what they have to say here. Item number 30, they referenced the principal solar energy system, something we need to look at or check with about setbacks.

So they have looked at it. And it says, because it says reviewed by, and it lists the initials, and I'm assuming the initials KS are Kirk Stoner's. So if he has his name on here that he reviewed this, he had an awareness of it, or else he's just rubber stamping his name. I don't know what it is, and that's not for me to decide. I'm just saying here that we had representation from the county. We have county comment. We have... Where's the next one? These tables that are referenced here-

It's there

... it is there. It is there. It is there. Whether it truthfully was reviewed and caught, that's on them.

Yeah.

Yep. And that's not for me to decide.

Thank you. Mr. Brickey, you're next.

Thank you, Robert.

You got it

Tom. Tom Brickey. Elizabeth Way. I have an excerpt here that I copied out of the minutes from March 4th, 2026 supervisory meeting at 6:00 PM, and it gets down to the section there, new business. And part of the new business, a comment was made by you, Phil, that- Yeah... the comprehensive plan was noted as a roadmap for the future land use and zoning decisions reflecting residents' input. The board clarifies that no public hearing will be scheduled until the comprehensive plan is completed and proper due diligence is conducted, and took no action to request to schedule a public hearing. So why is it now you can schedule one?

I'll have to look at that again.

It's

page three of 13.

Okay.

Dear

God.

Thank you. That's not you. Page. This was specifically related to Sean Delaney, the attorney from Stevens & Lee, who was here on behalf of the Heckman family. And they were requesting that the board authorize proceeding with the process to schedule a public hearing regarding a request for a data center overlay for their property, which is on... This is between the Turnpike exit, north of Carlisle Pike. So this was specifically referencing their request from their attorney to schedule a public hearing for rezoning their lands. So this board clarified that no public hearing shall be scheduled on this request until the comprehensive plan is completed.

So again, yes, I understand it's under that paragraph that you're referencing, but let me read this again, please.

"The comprehensive plan was noted as the roadmap for future land use and zoning decisions reflecting residents' input," period. "The board clarifies that no public hearing shall be scheduled until the comprehensive plan is completed and proper due diligence is conducted and until no action requested was taken to schedule a public hearing."

That, to me, is a open and closed, not just to this. That's everything. Well, we're sort of back to the-

Motion... the same motion that made on the 27th. That it appears this attorney was probably trying to rezone that land for a data center, and it's pretty clear to me that we don't... We denied their request for a public hearing in regards to rezoning that land. I understand. So

this statement only applies to this and not to that?

It replies to his specific request. Okay. You

kind of like snuck that on me.

Yes. Yeah.

Thank you.

One more thing, this was in my notes. You were questioning me about Cumberland County and their review. They did an unofficial review, Cumberland County did, on 6/25/2024. And their comments within that review referred to the permitted uses table, the 3.02.1, and they had lengthy comments about that specific table, and at no time did they address PSES.

Thank you. All right, meeting adjourned.