Monday, August 10, 2026

Meeting will come to order. We'll start with Pledge of Allegiance to the flag, led by the colonel back here.

The next item is the introduction of our new member, Kelley Brickey. Welcome aboard. Thank you. And we'll give you this opportunity to introduce yourself to the commission and the public.

Hello, I'm Kelley Brickey. Do I need to use that? Do I have to use that?

Yeah, you pick it up. This sham here. You kind of have...

For the people in the last room, hello, my name is Kelley Brickey. I am a transplant, if you will, to the area. I grew up in central Ohio my entire life, and then we relocated to Pennsylvania a few years ago. And I just decided it was time to offer what I can bring to the township in the way of my past government experience. I know it's presumptuous to say that I know a lot, but I've got 34 years of public service experience, and I'm ready to put it to good use.

That's cool.

We have some copies of her resume here if anybody wants one. You're welcome to take one.

All right. Is there any public comment on anything not dealing with tonight's final subdivision plan at Cumberland Range Estates?

Yeah, good evening. Thank you very much. Earl Beam, Country Club Road. I'm here representing... residents that live on Country Club Road that are affected by this. These are two basic questions that the residents want me to ask. We're curious how the minutes work. Who reviews them before they're approved?

We, we review them.

The minutes tonight. Say the minutes tonight. Before they're approved, I get... I don't know. We're asking how these minutes work.

(Unidentified speaker:) You're saying the minutes?

(Earl Beam:) The minutes, yes.

(Unidentified speaker:) Okay. Your recordings from tonight.

We review them, they're printed up, then the commission reviews them, and if we see any mistakes, we correct them, and then we approve them.

Well, does anybody else see these or approach them before they're approved?

Not until they're approved. Then they're available to the public.

So no outside services, nobody outside of the township sees this?

Not until we approve them.

Okay.

And we're not... By approval, all we're doing is going over and making sure that there aren't any typographical mistakes or...

But nobody... I couldn't, I couldn't look at to see if there's any, any scratches?

Not until we approve them and put them out to the public.

Okay.

Well, there was an email sent out that I saw with the Right-to-Know where PAX-1 was looking at, ask their approval before they're approved by the pastor, by the board....

What's this?

When was this? I'm sorry. I have my phone here. But I have copies of this. I'm just questioning it.

Were they minutes from the planning commission?

No, from another board. I'm just asking how this works, whether it's the board, whether it's the board of supervisors, or whether it's from the township or the planning commission.

Okay. Well, the way Tracy explained it to you, that's how it works. So I'm not aware of anything else occurring.

Well, I'll bring it to the next, I'll bring it to the board of supervisors meeting, and we'll project it up on the wall or wherever goes. I was just curious.

If it doesn't have something to do with the planning commission...

No, but I'm just asking if this is possible it happens. So that's fine. The second question, has anyone on this planning commission ever checked into the background of any of the people from Livic or PAX-1?

(Unidentified speaker:) Have we done what?

(Earl Beam:) Checked their background.

(Unidentified speaker:) Oh. A background check.

(Earl Beam:) It's not, it's not... Let's say, like, you hire a person, you check out the person.

That's not, that's not our role to do that.

Okay. You can point out a lot of information on how great they are and what they have done. However, you really search for information in other states, you'll find lawsuits against some of them, some of them where they were convicted, and some ongoing lawsuits. And also, you'll find out about some shady ventures and dealings they have going on and associated with. This is the type of people we're dealing with. They make a great impression and promise the world with all the money. However, they don't follow through. Our lives on Country Club Road have been turned upside down. We are now putting up with the dirt, truck after truck, the noise, the air pollution, the property depreciation.

This is not the life we had beforehand. As they say, money is the root of all evil. Our state politicians, representatives are to our municipals and our township, $20 million, and our township makes out like a bandit. What the us residents on Country Club Road get nothing but grief. We lost our lifestyle up there all because of this. Lastly, they say there's no crook like a state, local, or township representative or their lawyers. This is what us local residents have to fight against to get back our rights that have been taken away from us by the Planning Commission, the Board of Supervisors, and PAX-1. That's how we, the residents, feel. Thank you very much.

For full disclosure, I have checked some of... In the last 20 years, I have checked some people that come to us to see if their license, their engineering license, is up to date as they claim it is. I've never found one that was not, but I do check that from time to time. It's online.

I'm not talking about whether that's... I'm talking about other things that they've done in the past in other states.

Okay. I'm just... Just wanting full disclosure that, yes, I have checked the background of some people, which I think was your question.

My name is Michelle Skurzynski. I live at Aspen Lane in Country Manor West.

How do you spell your last name?

It's S-K-U-R-Z-Y-N-S-K-I.

What's your first name?

Michelle. Two Ls.

Thanks.

Okay. I just have a follow-up question about how the minutes are transposed from the actual meeting to where they're printed up, and then they're posted for us to be able to view if we couldn't make the meeting or whatnot. So how does that work exactly? We all come, we speak in front of you, and how do you... Do you record? Do you just make notes word for word? I'm just trying to understand.

So basically they are minutes for any board meeting. They are not a transcript.

Okay.

So they are minutes. They are highlights of key material items.

Okay. And then you take that, and somebody here combines them and makes up the minutes? That's correct. Okay. And who is it that puts the minutes together for the board? Is it one person for all the boards? Just one. Or is it just one person for each board?

It's evolved over the last year.

The, yeah, the Planning Commission now uses a company called DocuScript. They are the ones that actually are putting the minutes together for the Planning Commission. And then for the board, the actual Board of Supervisors, our secretary in-house does those.

Oh, so when she's at the meeting, attending the meeting, she does that? Yes. And then it's put together and put out?

Yeah.

Okay. And DocuScript is a recorded, a recording of our meetings?

Yes. Yes.

Okay. And so DocuScript is used by which... The board of supervisors? Just planning. Just planning board. Planning board. Yes. Okay. What about any of the other boards? The zoning board, parks and recreation, any of that? No?

Yeah. The parks and recreation, they do their own minutes as well.

Okay. And I'm not sure...

The zoning hearing board hires a transcriptionist. A legal court reporter.

Okay, and they come to the meetings, yes, and they do their thing?

Yes.

And then it's transcribed and put on the website for review?

No. It's only transcribed if there's a challenge.

Oh, okay.

It costs an enormous amount of money to transcribe. We get them done. We have to hold them for so long. If there's no challenge, there's no minutes made. There's no transcript.

Okay. That's why I wondered, because when I was on the website, there's not a lot for the zoning board, correct, to be able to go back and review or to look something up that maybe I had a question about. So can I come to the zoning commission and request the minutes from 2023? Would you still have them?

You can if you wanna pay for them.

Okay. But I would pay for them?

Yes. You would pay hundreds of dollars.

Hundreds of dollars for the meeting minutes to get them from the zoning board?

Yes. Maybe up to 1,000 even. You're paying for a court reporter that's doing a transcript.

But the transcript's already written. Is that not correct?

The meetings are public. You're welcome to come. There's one posted on the doors here. You can come to the zoning hearing Wednesday night, 7:00 PM.

Yeah, I did see that. I did see that one. But I mean previous ones in the past, it would cost a resident thousands of dollars?

You can get a copy of the written decision. That is not the transcript of the hearing. The hearings are transcribed and held for an allotted amount of time, and then if there's no appeal, we don't get them transcribed.

What is the amount of time that you hold them?

I don't know. Legally, we talk to our attorney. It's in the Municipalities Planning Code. It's the appeal process that's allowed for a zoning hearing under the Municipalities Planning Code.

But if I wanted to review something, therefore, it would cost me thousands of dollars possibly?

If you wanna look at a decision, I could get you a copy of the decision. You could make a Right-to-Know or...

Okay. But you couldn't give me the actual, the meeting about it?

No, ma'am.

Okay.

I just wanna clarify one thing, and the reason for that is the zoning hearing board, that's a court. It's a court of law. So it's an adjudication.

Okay. I'm asking because I don't understand.

That is different than minutes for the planning commission, minutes from a board of supervisors. It's not minutes. You're talking about a legal document.

A hearing.

Okay, because I know in the courts you can get legal documents.

It's a transcript.

But in the township, you can't get them is what you're telling me.

You can get them if it was appealed and they were transcribed. You would have to pay for them. You'd have to township at them.

Okay.

Each one of these sets of transcripts are copyrighted.

Okay. All right. But they are obtainable if you pay for them? That's what... That's correct. You can get them? All right. Thank you very much.

All right. Seeing no other public comment, we will move on to the next item. We will review the minutes.

So I do have one question, Mark. Maybe you can clarify this for me. It's a little confusing. And I found this because I went back the first of the year and reviewed all the minutes from the planning commission. And I saw what appears to be an inconsistency, and it's right in front of us from the last two meetings. So July 13th minutes and July 27th minutes, there is the phase 1B final land development plan, and there's also, in both, one has it at TPF-2612, one has it TPF-2617. So I'm confused. Where...

Where, where does it say 2617 in the July...

The... is in the July 27th, bottom of page one. Page one? Yeah, at the bottom. And then comparing it to page three of the 13th.

I think that's a mistake. I don't have the TPF numbers with me, but I believe it should be 12. 26-12. And that's something that you guys could have corrected.

Yeah. Okay. So I'd like to have the July 27th minutes, bottom of page one, TPF reference to final land development plan for phase 1B, TPF-2617 should be changed to TPF-2612. I'll verify that's the right one to see if that's correct. Okay. All right. Thank you.

So are we now working with the first approval minutes for July 13th?

Yes, we're reviewing July 13th.

All right.

I asked because I didn't know which one to change.

That's fine. All right. So we're on page two, and this is really for Zach, and I'm just asking because Wes Beard is not here to comment to this. Where he requested the following amendments he made for the June 22nd meeting minutes, and it states here that you would revise the minutes to include the second, the second motion. Did you do that? Mm-hmm. All right.

And they should be posted on the website, those minutes.

Okay. And then also on page two, right below number, I think it's number three, where it says, "A commission further requested." I don't think it should really say a commission.

It says the commission, doesn't it?

The commission. Yeah, I have a commission.

Yeah. Oh, okay, you said below two. You said below three.

Yeah, do you... Right here.

Yes, yes. Where's it say?

The commission. Yeah. Normally it should say the commission instead of a commission. Because what commission? If it's like that, you're thinking what commission?

This is the second paragraph of item two.

Yeah.

Are we generally happy with this format? She redid these. It's probably the way it's done, so.

I have a couple things.

Oh, go ahead, ma'am.

Are we still on the same minutes? Yep. Okay, I didn't have any other changes to it. I thought the rest of the minutes looked good.

Okay, I got a couple things on that. On page four, if I recall, the public comment period, it says public comment TPF-2527, but I believe it was for both 2527 and 2612, because he read right through both of them, if I recall.

What now?

Well, on page four, where it says public comment TPF-2527, he read through both of those, and then we have public comment on both 2527 and 26-12.

Would you propose we added the word and TPF-26-12? Yes. Yes. Okay.

There was one more thing. Page seven. Township solicitor, Mike Hess.

He made a comment, and I believe it was township engineer. Township engineering consultant. Did he make that comment? Did that just have to do with the paving? I don't have the minutes in front of me, so I don't know which... I know, I know. Take it out of context. I thought you made the comments about the paved up.

No, I think Mike Hess did, because, but... Since it's probably going to Mike Hess. Yeah. I don't believe...

That would be me. It wouldn't be Mike Hess. It wasn't? Yes, it would be township engineer, Bud Grove. Who was the township engineer you were trying to... I propose we make that change.

Dave Center.

I didn't know Mike was our new township solicitor.

Keith wouldn't have liked that. So we're gonna hire a solicitor, and Mike Hess and... Township engineer, Bud Grove... Bud Grove is on this, correct? Correct.

That's all I got on that one.

Okay. I move to approve the minutes from July 13th.

It's been moved to approve the July 13th meetings. Is there a second? Second. Second. It's been moved and second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. Opposed nay. Motion passes.

Okay. Now we'll move on to the July 27th minutes.

Bottom of page one, we confirm and change that Mark Burns to TPF 2612, not 17.

Okay. I have on page four where it states Appalachian Trail appeal. I did state that that way, and I believe it was Andy, the attorney, or Justin Ross, stated that it's not technically an appeal. It's called something else.

It's a review comment at this point. Do you think that's correct, Zach? Appalachian Trail. Review or input or...

I don't remember what he said, but it wasn't actually an appeal, so I don't think we should have it stated in here that it's an appeal.

No, they just, they reviewed it and gave comments.

Comments. So it was a review of their comments.

So Appalachian Trail comments. Would that work? Yes. Yes. Okay.

Zach, a little bit of feedback on the minutes here. I think there was a lot of good improvement in this copy. Two things I noticed were kind of missing out separately the modifications and waivers, and to also recap any formal actions in the chart below. I think that was more of a simple...

One other thing, which appears on page five, and it also appears on page eight. So it's a redundant statement made by Larry Claycomb, and I believe...

Where is it located? At the bottom of the page?

Bottom of page five. Yeah, thank you. And then at the top of page eight. It's repeated itself twice, and I believe, Larry, that you stated this to the residents after we had heard everything from the developers, and we had listened to what the residents had to say, their feedback. Yes, that is correct. And that was before we actually made a decision.

That is correct, yes. Should we cross out the one at the bottom of page five? Would that work?

Yeah. I think so. Yes. I'm thinking so, yes. And also the statement on page five above where it says, "Justin Ross stated that the phase 1B plans had been under review for approximately one year and had received extensive scrutiny," I thought that he said that when he began his presentation, in the very beginning when he began his presentation to review the final land development, and that it would've also included the preliminary land development. It's just kind of sitting there above what Larry said.

What did he say?

On page... Yeah. On page five.

Would you like to move it? Where would you like to move it to, or just leave it where it is?

No, I... It just seems totally out of place, that one sentence.

The residents were giving input and comments, and then Justin may have said, "You know, look, these plans have been under review for about a year and have received extensive scrutiny." Instead of answering each one of the residents' concerns, he might have said that. And I would think that she had the tape and possibly did it in the order of the tape. Yeah. Okay. I'm not sure why we have a bold heading there to say that again. Is that when we started talking about 1B? No.

No. We were talking all about 1B. We started with that on page number two.

Maybe it's a repetition then.

How would you change it then, Robin? What do you suggest? Because I think Justin did say something like that, that it had been under review. I don't know when he said it, but we can move it to where you believe it should be if that's...

You have any thoughts, Zach, or anything?

I remember him saying that. I thought it was sort of in the beginning of his presentation. If I remember right.

That's really how I remember it too, Bud.

Yeah. We can check for it, actually. He's now on page five.

It's on page five, and it's next to where it says, "Final, final land development, hyphen, phase 1B." So it should be moved over to page two where it also says, "Final land development plan, hyphen, phase 1B."

So would you, on page five, would you cross out that bolded title and remove it, and then would you move the Justin Ross stated sentence to after the first paragraph on page two, phase 1B, one paragraph, and then presented, Justin stated that it had been under review. Would that be a good place, Robin? Yeah. Would that work, you think?

One year it received extensive scrutiny, it was presented.

Yeah, I'm not sure why he said it. I'm just...

We can check and verify when it was...

Yeah. Well, why do we have the final land development phase 1B in dark print? Because...

We have it over there on dates on page two. I'd say strike that.

Strike it. Strike that title and move that to where we think it should. Yes. Okay. Zach can look into that. Yes. Maybe move it to the end of the first paragraph at the beginning when we were talking about it. Right.

Okay. That way we can approve these minutes.

And then, now I have a question about this. On page six, where at the very last paragraph, where it's talking about Mike has stated final review, and he talks about da, da, da, and then he says, "Lighting would generally be limited to 25 feet." I thought that we... It's 20 feet. It's not 25 feet, it's 20 feet. Okay.

Can we strike that and make that 20? 20, yeah. Okay.

All right. On the top of seven, I think that the second paragraph, Jim requested the total anticipated Clean and Green rollback taxes for the entire project. Did you wanna put them in your pocket? You requested... It's not how much... the information, or you... He's requesting information. About the taxes.

Would it matter if we added after the word requested the total anticipated amount of... Yeah, the amount... the amount of, amount of...

Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Can I move the mouse?

You guys all good? I got a couple. If you guys... Go ahead. Go ahead. Page... I'm gonna start here. I think I've got what we... Page three, fourth paragraph down, "Applicant stated DEP would require emergency response action plan." That was actually my statement I made.

Should, should that say Doug Graham stated that DEP would require?

Yeah. DEP comment you got out of PR. Is that how we should write it, Doug Graham, or should we write it Commissioner Graham?

I just said, like, the commission requested, or stated, I should say.

Well, I think it should be your name. You know...

That's fine. Put it in here. I'm not, I'm not baffled.

Okay. So we'll cross out the applicant. Write, "Doug Graham stated that DEP..."

I got... It probably doesn't matter for the minutes. It had to do with the section on page four, where they started stating the size and number of tanks. And I know that's a fluid number, fluid, no pun intended. But it did not even come close to what was on the drawings presented to us. Is that something that's part of the workings of the facility, would that be something that they would have to firm up prior to submission of the building permit? I believe they said that. They did. I believe that was stated at the meeting. 'Cause it really doesn't impact the site.

But it would the building permit, I would think.

Well, it says above that, the proposed water storage capacity. And then at the... I would say that the last sentence, or the four letter sentence, "The project proposes." Yeah, not would.

Yeah. So the project proposes 10 tanks at each site?

Six tanks, six supply tanks. The numbers that they presented to us on the printer was 12 tanks. And the numbers and the sizes were all wrong. So that's something that would need to be firmed up for the building permit.

So the change in the minutes would be the project would contain 10 tanks. You got it. Would we want that to say, "Cross out would contain," or, "Project proposes 10 tanks"? Proposes to contain 10 tanks. Okay.

They were reading off numbers that weren't even close. But they said they were changing a while ago.

Well, you don't need to be redundant. You're gonna... Up there, you're gonna say, "The project proposes..."

Down below. You're gonna change it down there. Yeah, the project proposes to contain 10 tanks. All right.

Doug, you more?

Good question.

All right. We got the duplicate one? Yes. And another note. That's it. I had a couple more consistency questions, 'cause what was happening was, as I review these minutes, I'm remembering and noticing inconsistencies. So what I did was I charted all these different plans and dates, and started tracking them. And if I go back to the April 13th approved minutes, it has a reference in there to TPF-2525 as PAX-1, Phase 1B, and just determined that that is actually 2612. So I'm gonna...

(Mark:) 2525 was the preliminary Phase 1B. So did they give different numbers? Yes. Did they change the numbers? Yes. Okay. Each plan has a plan number.

That's mainly for my filing system.

That's all good, is how to keep track of these.

I have a list of all the numbers. Do you want me to provide them to you if you need them?

Yeah, I think that'd be... Well, just as we go forward, I think as we track them, it's just hard to, you know, know what's what.

Well, you know I'm tracking them and preparing an agenda for you, so they should be correct on the agenda. But I can give you... I've created a list because it is very confusing. Yeah. There's about 10 plans, I remember. Yeah.

Okay. I don't need a list. I'm just trying to keep track, and so I'll notice that. The other observation I had is that, like from this Ahold solar, I hear submission three, submission five. I mean, are they really resubmitting every time? Yeah. They are?

We do, we do have different submissions, and...

And why are they doing that? Do they start the clock or what?

It's mainly responding to Bud's comments.

So every time they resubmit, I log it as another submission.

Submission. And what's that do to the timeline? It doesn't change the timeline. It doesn't change the timeline. It doesn't. But Bud is also, on his review comments, often he's saying, "Review number one, review number two, review number three." Yes. Yeah, yeah. Those are different submissions. And sometimes some of the plans, because there's a lot of technical back and forth, they're not even at the planning commission. Right. The review's being done and another submission, mainly to Bud for his technical review. That's helpful. Thank you very much. And when I'm posting some of the plans on the share site for you guys, it shows which submission it is usually.

It should.

I could put in my comments if, say for instance, they make a resubmission, but that resubmission does not come to you. I can just note in the next send out that this resubmission was not reviewed by the planning commission. Okay. I don't need any changes. Right. Just to keep track.

So the idea is that the 90-day clock keeps rolling. And I could spend some time and put something together and explain to you guys about the clock. I wrote a thing for Phil that asked me about it. So I had more things about it. And it's interesting to understand. It's complicated. It's been something the planning commission never really... You know, they're relying on staff to handle that. Sure. If we have a deemed approval, it's my fault, basically.

Thank you.

And the way the MPC has worded this, it's hard to follow. So it's 90 days after the first meeting of either the planning commission or the board of supervisors after the plan is submitted.

I see. And that's the key word, after the plan is submitted.

So say they submit the plan on the 15th, we have a meeting on the 23rd or something, the planning commission, and it's not even on that agenda. The time clock, the 90-day, starts on the 23rd. Right.

Even if they say, "I want the plan tabled," the clock has already started. Thank you. And I'll be honest with you, that's something that Mark brought to my attention here just last week. Right. Because I had been thinking of it the other way.

And almost every developer... I mean, I don't work for these developers. I work for Middlesex Township, and I try to advise the planning commission all the time. But they're very cooperative. They want to go through the process. They get frustrated as it goes on. Some of these plans take a year in the review process. But almost always they will give a time extension. Now, we've been up against the wall with some of the data center plans, but it's not like they haven't been under review for a long period of time. But they're at the point where they're not giving time extensions.

But almost always we get time extensions and keep that clock moving forward. You guys might not see that 'cause it goes to the supervisors. And then, but the plan, if you're not done with it, it comes back to you within the time period that's been extended. Okay.

Thank you.

Almost all of these big plans, they request an extension.

Right. If we have a major plan, a major, major plan, the clock ends 90 days after the first meeting after it's submitted. It may take more than that for staff to review. In fact, in a lot of cases it does. And if the plan is real large, and we have another one coming up probably within the next six months, a lot of the developers want to see my comments within 30 days. And there is no rule, and Keith has informed me of this, that says that we must return comments to them within 30 days of submission. We have 90 days. Technically, that first submission could go up to the 90th day.

But they're doing a lot of review before they ever submit. Yeah. Some are. Some are meeting stormwater and other issues. For instance, Ahold. That's one of the reasons why there were so many resubmissions. It goes back and forth. And to be honest with you, that's the best way to review. As opposed to make a comment, wait 30 days, get their comments, wait 30 days. The way to do it is to keep it moving, and the only way to do that, sometimes you have to have it take more than 90 days to meet that final approval date.

Okay. I wanted to correct something that Larry said, just so you can get it in your minds. They're not requesting an extension of time. They're not requesting, and the board is not granting an extension of time. They're offering an extension of time. That's right. And the board's agreeing to it or not agreeing to it. Right. Okay. Thanks. It's not a request. Okay. Yeah, they're giving us more time. They're granting us time, and we agree or don't agree. They're not requesting. The township could request, but...

I move to approve the minutes from July 27th.

Second. It's been moved and second. All in favor of approving the minutes for July 22nd, say aye. Aye. Opposed, nay. Motion passes.

I thought it was three.

I think they were smacking my hand there.

Now moving on to discussion of TPF 26-15. Dave, come on down.

Come over here.

And Elizabeth.

Dave White, Representative Engineering Services.

Elizabeth Boyd. I'm the...

Laura Geist.

Pardon me? Laura Geist. Oh, okay. Well, we talked about this last meeting. This is the fifth phase of Cumberland Range Estates. It's phase six and not five. It's a little out of order. And at the meeting last time, we didn't have any comments, or I don't think Bud had had an opportunity to review it yet. And then he did provide me some feedback. And it's just the next phase in a subdivision plan. You see four submissions or five out of the preliminary. Nothing has changed from the preliminary plan. And so if there's any questions, I'd be happy to answer what I can, or Elizabeth would be happy to answer as well.

Yeah. Well, I got a couple. I did review Bud's comments and the township's comments. Some of us are playing catch up because we weren't here, you know, when this plan was first submitted.

Who did attend that?

For me, I think the only one, Larry was here, and I think Tracy was here. That's it. Yeah. From the planning perspective.

How long ago was that?

Before.

Let's ask Elizabeth.

I believe it was July 13th.

No, we're talking about the very first phase.

2012. 12 years ago, yeah. Years ago. I want to say 2000. It was actually reviewed under the old Subdivision and Land Development Ordinance, but the new, at that time, the new Stormwater Management Ordinance.

But they do have an approved preliminary plan, so in general they're able to apply for this permit. Sure. And under the old ordinance.

Under the old SALDO, correct.

That's correct. And just to familiarize myself, and then I went out and drove around there today because I never went back there. It's a nice neighborhood. And I went through the area six, the plot six there. And on your drawing, page five, there's a bunch of boxes right where the trail crosses, and there's a big swamp there. And that... Yeah, that would be... That'd be okay with me on that then. So is that something you want me to make a note of?

That was installed at phase four, of sediment in the development of phase four. It will be removed for this round.

Must have both drawn this now. I never saw it.

Yeah, it's possible.

Okay. I'm just curious as to what that was. I've seen it on the drawing.

Yeah, it's an existing condition. That's why it's shown.

Okay, got it. The squares didn't make any sense to me. And then some of the comments were based around, from the township and from Bud, were about the trail going around there and what provisions were gonna be made to put the trail in, when it's gonna be put in, how it's gonna be maintained. Do you have any plans to suggest how you're going to mow the 7,200-foot trail? You wanna answer or you want me to?

Go ahead. We, at the very preliminary plan, we talked about that, and we had only... At the time, the ordinance wasn't specific in what a walking trail was, so we had offered that we would maintain it as a mowed walking path, and it would be done after all the phases are completed. So it would connect to all the different areas on the subdivision.

And some of the comments, they wanted to know how wide and that, and I found it on here. Page five, it says a four-foot trail, which is pretty narrow. And I'm very familiar with community trails since, other than the ridings, we maintain our own trails because they're rideways through our property. So we do our own mowing and everything. We actually have a work party this weekend if anybody would like to join us to help clear the riding down on the lower side down there.

Those are an interesting approach. It's gonna rain, though.

So we'll see. Well, I hope so. I don't want to do that in the woods and work. But you also had a note on here that maximum height of the grass had was 12 inches. Somewhere there was a note in here. That seems awfully high for permissible walking trail. I thought I wrote that. Here. It's on page three in the bottom. Four-foot wide trail, which is very narrow to walk on, and it says, "Heights shall remain less than 12 inches in height."

Yeah, that was approved preliminary, while for whatever reason, less than 12 inches was, maximum of 12 inches was selected. Right. We had no, there were no design specs for it.

So I guess with that, I mean, you have a 12-inch high field out there. Are there gonna be any kind of markers to identify the trail, the signs and stuff?

There was supposed to be... We're supposed to have X amount of foot traffic signs. I didn't see them in the details.

They are supposed to have the signs posted after they are... The trail is staked out, mowed. There should be signs posted. And it's... You can make that part of your motion.

It's definitely in there.

Well, I don't remember. It's been so long, Elizabeth. It certainly wouldn't hurt to make sure in your motion that they add the fact that signs should be marked.

That they be marked, signed and marked. 'Cause there was a comment in there from Elizabeth, I think, that where it crosses Christopher Court, they wanted to have some sort of signage there to warn people that there's a road that you can't see.

Yeah, there's... It's on the checklist that whenever I get the bonds on how many signs have to be there, before I get the bond letter.

I don't remember that, but you may be right.

I remember that it's on that list. Because I look at that list periodically.

It has to do with financially, and I'm sure he knows that better than me. Yeah. 'Cause I know we have to...

Have signs on ours, and we just had to replace them all 'cause they had rotted off after one year, whatever.

Yeah. Yeah, it would make absolutely no sense to have a mowed walking trail without signs.

Yeah. It would disappear. You know, we have enough trouble getting people to help maintain our trails. I end up mowing the neighbors a lot of times. And others will complain when it gets to be six feet high.

Well, it's gonna be in the green space. So the association will be mowing.

I believe it is also in your declaration of covenants and restrictions.

They're all in those docs. Yes. Just for my information, the HOA is gonna mow those fields as well? What fields? The green spaces and stuff.

The green space. The green spaces are to be maintained, and it will be maintained ultimately by the HOA.

Okay. Just bringing myself up to speed on this one, so. Was it, will the walking paths be created with each phase before we release improvement security?

Well, the walking trails have not been installed yet, so improvement security for them have not been released. When they are installed, they will be released. What about phase one? Same thing. It's already released.

We had talked about... No, phase one didn't have any. We had talked about doing it all at the end so they would all connect, because otherwise they go to nowhere. They won't all connect until the phases are done.

I'll just bring it as an issue for me to keep in mind, though.

Yeah, you're right. Phase one, there was none. There was none in phase one. Because it was a short cul-de-sac. Three, fours.

And that's why that was phase one. That's correct.

Mark, two things about this walking trail. Doug, you're saying that four feet for the walking trail really isn't that wide. How wide is the one of the walking trail over at the township park that's paved?

I think they're at least six...

60 inches. 60, five foot minimum. The ones in Cumberland Preserve are five feet. Cumberland Preserve. Okay. So they're wider than four feet. And both my doors are wider than that. And Cumberland Preserve was approved, for instance, under the new ordinance where we had design specs for walking trails. This ordinance did not.

That's right. And you can walk on a four-foot. You go to parks the Appalachian Trail up here, and they're grown over. So does the planning commission at that time agreed to four foot.

Right.

Okay. And then the other thing, in reading over Cumberland County's comments, they're talking about that we need to do... Township should determine if we would, if lighting is necessary on this trail. I mean, I don't believe we have that even in the park.

No, we don't have, and we don't have it in Cumberland Preserve.

Right. No. Okay.

I know lighting... And I think that... Well, I think if you have a trail going through somebody's backyard, I would hope that they would want it.

It'd be a bit odd to me.

Right. It shouldn't be encouraged anyway.

Right. Okay. Well, I thought that was... Just bringing it up. I wasn't advocating for it. Well, I've got a couple questions about your comments. Phase two, phase three, phase four, everything's been completed except for the roads,... wearing course. That's correct. That's consistent through the development so far. Let's see.

Is there any plan to put wearing course down, Elizabeth?

Kelley. Kelley's... or finish her comments.

Yeah. So I see where in the next paragraph on the second page right before it says phase six comments, that there are going to be issues that are going to be addressed by the board of supervisors.

That's correct. There are some issues that pertain to timing, what is in the developer's agreements for each phase, and on the original approved preliminary plan phasing plan. Now, this board, from what I understand, we have one board member here, we have our township manager here, is certainly agreeable, as am I, that Adams Road should be paved. And whatever is necessary based upon our solicitor's advice in order to, say, for instance, if a waiver was granted in order to allow a street to be paved beyond its normal cul-de-sac length, if she only paves a certain portion that is shy of that distance, then that waiver would either have to be negated or addressed somehow some way, because it's on the record that a waiver was granted.

Okay.

The timing issues in the developer's agreements have been violated technically, and there's a number of reasons for that. Elizabeth has some, but the township also has in our ordinance that we're not allowed, we don't allow paving if 75% of the homes of a lot are not built out. And there for a while, phase two, phase three, took a while to get to that point, and over time. Phase four just recently got to, I think, a little bit better than 80%. So, and we're holding her money.

Sure.

Okay? So regardless of whether or not that timing has been violated, the bottom line is we're holding security, and how that's handled should be reviewed by our solicitor, and he should provide advice to our board of supervisors. But the road should be paved.

I'm in a unique position because I am a resident of that development, and the paving has probably been the singular most talked about issue. It becomes a safety issue because the school buses stop at Elizabeth and Middlesex Road, and we have residents that will go walk out onto Middlesex Road and stop traffic to help get the kids onto... We gotta get the school bus off Middlesex Road. Right. I mean, that's, it's a safety concern. Yes.

So... Well, I'm curious about that. I've heard that before, but I follow those buses frequently all year and they stop a dozen times on Middlesex Road, so why is that different?

Well, I think it's because possibly we have a bus stop that collects kids at the top of Elizabeth Way, but I've been behind school buses as well, and they're picking up children that live not in developments, but they live in farmhouses or property, and they walk up their driveway. So I don't know if it's just an overabundance of caution in the neighborhood.

I mean, I see kids crossing the road. I don't think there's any difference. That's my personal opinion.

I think the concern is that's meant to be a public road, and they'd like the bus to be able to travel down the road.

Right.

I'm not opposing that. I absolutely...

Yeah. I just... Well, when it becomes a public road, won't the bus go back there? Yes. The bus turn into the development. Yes. When it's a public road.

Yeah. They will do it when you go through the neighborhood when it becomes dedicated to the township. That's correct, yes.

I just don't see why it's a safety issue today. That's all I'm saying. Because it happens all over the neighborhood.

Yeah, that's right. Yes. Yeah.

It does. And we follow it a dozen times. We do not follow it. Okay. I was gonna say, 'cause I took a ride back there after the storm this morning, there's a lot of water ponding around the drop inlets now because of the sinking ground. And that'll be ice in the winter, and then we're looking at...

Some of those inlets are set low because there's no wearing surface. Right. Exactly. So you need a second addition of... there's gonna be water ponding there. That's correct. Most of them go off on there. Right. And they've been that way for a long period of time. A long period of time. Yeah. So what will happen is, at some point when the board says, "Yes, let's do this," I will meet with Elizabeth's contractor. In fact, he's already talked to me, at least preliminarily, saying that if Elizabeth decides to do this, that what I do is I walk the streets, pick out the bad spots that need to be repaired and touched up, before the wearing surface gets put down.

So any concerns that may be there relative to trenching across the streets or whatever, that'll all be taken care of.

We have a question from Kim, who is a resident behind there, and her lane attaches to the street.

To the development. I'm one of the ones that walk out on the road because my last great-grandson started kindergarten from first grade last year. I have seen people run those buses three times.

You mean run, drive past them?

With the red lights on, and even the bus driver is like, "What?" And she's yelling at the kids, and we're yelling at the kids.

Yeah, no, I mean, personally, I understand that. But it happens everywhere.

And my... That's my point. Yes. My granddaughter drives, she did drive one of the little vans. She had a resident pass her van on North Middlesex Road with kids in it. Which I know nobody can do anything about, but that's why I walk out and would like to see the bus stop changed.

I've seen it, I've seen it from our house too.

When... Are they, when this final wear coat, will the bus go back and turn around in the cul-de-sac or is it gonna go back and make the loops?

Well, that's up to the school board to determine where the bus stops will be inside or internal. I can't tell you that.

Well, I know the way, there's two streets go back now and they join, correct? Right. So is the final wear coat gonna go on both streets at the same time?

I don't know that right now. All I know is from what I heard, Elizabeth is here, is that phase two and phase three will be paved. I did not hear for certain whether or not phase four will be paved or not. Part of the problem, part of the deal was, is that we wanted to have security for all the wearing course the whole way out, through phase four out to North Middlesex Road. Okay. So...

So the bus would have to turn around back there at that T. Well, I don't...

It's still paved. This is paved roughly.

Yeah, but it's not. I don't see how finally they would want a school bus...

I don't know where the school bus would go there.

Stop and turn around. A school bus won't run on this road unless it's dedicated. That's correct. And to be dedicated, the township has to have the final word come on it. Yes, it does. That's correct. So what I'm saying is, she could pave to phase four and stop.

Well, technically, phase four, the improvement agreement for phase four, the time limit has expired. So technically, the paving on phase four must, if we adhere to the improvement agreement, must be done. The four-year timing is on the improvement agreements. Five years. No, it's four in the improvement agreements.

Phase five's back here.

Yeah, that's... So phase four's here, like that, and then that goes all the way down to six. This is not it right here, this is just kind of gravel and crap.

So technically, the way I see it, the entire loop should be paved. That's my personal opinion. I'm not a lawyer. That's just my personal opinion.

Is phase five complete? No.

Nothing there.

Nothing yet.

But she's proposing to do phase six before phase five.

Yeah, right.

So I've lost the plot. What are we reviewing, to understand that? Phase six.

What are we reviewing?

Phase six.

What are we even doing? Phase six. Building phase six. Phase six.

Final plan for phase six. We move forward on phase six? Yeah. Okay.

How many lots are there, Dave? How many lots?

Five, six lots?

There's five lots in phase six.

Five lots. It's a small cul-de-sac.

Well, that was just history, so you understand what's going on with Jerry.

I have one more question, if I'm allowed. Who is the current developer? Is there a change in that? Because there are Landmark for sale signs basically on available lots on Sue Benka.

(Elizabeth Boyd:) I sold them four lots.

(Unidentified commission member:) All right, thank you. So they're building, Landmark is building those four lots.

(Elizabeth Boyd:) I sold them four lots.

(Unidentified commission member:) Are they only building four, or do you expect them to buy out the phase six lots?

(Elizabeth Boyd:) I haven't made a decision. I just sold them four lots.

(Unidentified commission member:) Thank you.

Four lots in which phase?

Phase four. They bought my last four lots that I had.

So phase four is totally sold out.

It's sold out. Now, they don't have homes on them. Right. But the lots are sold.

Okay. That'll be great to see some action there. How many lots, are there any lots sold on phase six yet?

No. I don't sell the lots till they're improved. And just so everyone knows, the four lots, I still have full architectural review, and I review every plan and every house that's built in there. They are beautiful homes. Landmark's building those. They are beautiful. I am still approving, same as every other house that's been built in there.

Yeah, they are all acknowledged. They are beautiful homes. And to Elizabeth's credit, things moved along rather rapidly there for a while when the economy was good, and then all of a sudden the economy floor fell out of it when you hit phase four. So that's part of the timing, that's part of scheduling and getting a revised phasing schedule completed.

From the planning commission, what are the concerns on improvements? Anyone?

No. No, I understand everything that was brought up in the questions.

I don't even think that's over.

You could recommend on it tonight if you'd like. I would suggest you would recommend subject to final review by Middlesex Township Municipal Authority, but we have not received that yet.

We don't need to take any action tonight.

Well, at some point you have to take action, at this meeting or the next meeting, if you'd like to...

Well, we could wait or do whatever you want to. Are you suggesting we approve it based on that satisfactory review?

My recommendation, as you know, I have...

I can't approve it.

No. I have a plan recommendation. Right. And it is that you do approve it subject to conditions.

That's what I thought.

Yeah. Okay. And especially at the next meeting, I will, we will have two data center plans here. Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm happy to...

And you know what?

You guys don't want to come to that. No.

As long as you're the first.

The last meeting was enough.

All right. Tell me about it. I make a motion that we approve the final subdivision plan phase six. Recommend approval. Recommend approval. Oh, yeah. We should, yeah. Any public comments?

Are there any public comments on this plan before we take action?

Okay. Okay. I recommend approval of Cameron Ridge Estates Final Subdivision Plan Phase six, subject to compliance with all the township engineer's comments and recommendations.

Second. Second. No, you go ahead.

I second.

It's been moved and second to approve phase six. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed nay. Motion carries.

Okay, thank you.

You're welcome. Can we talk real quick about the waiver?

Real quick. Real quick. We're off the record.

Yeah. So you had mentioned last time, at the last meeting, that you had to approve phase two and three for us to move forward.

That's, there's a waiver that was... I'm just going to summarize this in, like, a three-page report, but when phase two, from what I remember, when phase two was approved, one of the conditions of approval was that the entire road loop be bonded.

It was phase three.

And phase three, okay, that was also reiterated, because in phase three he went past..., okay? So that waiver and that condition still held, okay, up through phase three. Phase four, okay, phase four, the road was designed the whole way out to North Middlesex Road, so there was no waiver. Okay? But what is the issue with phase four is if you look at the developer's agreement, there's a timeline in here that says all improvements must be done within a certain period of time. Okay? And I believe Mark said five. I believe it's four years. I don't know why it's four in the improvement agreement.

It's the only place I see it in every improvement agreement, at four years, and it's been more than four years since that plan was approved. So the supervisors, you have your money. The supervisors, upon consultation with the attorney, and the supervisors have to decide how to handle that violation of the developer's agreement.

So I'm not at 75% yet.

You are at 75% of the total. Correct? If you combine them together, yes.

If you combine them together. Yes, if you combine phase two, three.

So I thought it was phase four. Phase four has to be 75% before I pave phase four.

But you bring up a good point. If you look at phase four and isolate just phase four, you still have to deal with the terms in the improvement agreement that says it must be completed within four years. Now, the way to do that is to revise the phasing schedule, and in order to get the phasing schedule revised, you have to propose that the phasing schedule be changed to the board of supervisors. Supervisors have to approve that. I would assume then they would amend the improvement agreement to extend that time, but that's your responsibility. The way the improvement agreement is written right now, technically they could.

That's why I said depending on the attorney's review of the improvement agreement, how to interpret that in his advice to the board of supervisors.

So I guess short here is can I pave phase two and three? Because I'm going to run out of time here.

You can pave... I did the same thing you did. You can pave phase two and three, correct. But the supervisors also have to waive that, the waiver that was granted to you, and the township has to determine whether or not or how they are going to, if they are going to, how they are going to account for the lack of a cul-de-sac turnaround, which was one of the reasons for the waiver. There is no turnaround. So that issue needs to be resolved.

Okay.

So, no turnaround.

At the end of phase three?

There is no circular turnaround, no.

At the end of phase three. No. Okay. So I'm looking at the plan, and I can see that the street's gonna come back and then it veers to the right, and it looks like there's gonna be a little bit of macadam continue on, and then you have this area here that's like a street going towards Potters House Street.

Yeah, that's correct.

So, let's see what he's pointing to. Yeah, over here. It's gonna be paved to that line? Currently is. It will be paved to that... To this, it's gonna be paved to this line.

Yes.

That's correct. So a bus can't pull down here and back up to get back on the main...

I can't tell you what a bus can and cannot do.

Right. But look at, it looks to me like a bus couldn't. Correct. They're not gonna be able to back in there because it's gonna be grass. I've seen buses, my...

Personal opinion, I can't tell you what they're going to do. I've seen buses do something similar, pull in or pull down here, pull forward, back up, and go.

Yes.

I've seen that. Well, if the bus pulled in, kept its drive wheels on the macadam, it wouldn't get stuck and it could... This would have to be stone and paved. Right.

Right.

So what I'm getting at is to try to get enough paved that the bus can come off the street. That would go to here. It should pave to there. Actually go to...

Phase three goes to here.

So she'd pave to there. That's correct. And if we put some stone there, the bus could turn.

I think if this stays, they won't combust in terms. Okay. Or it's up to the school district. Right. Okay? We can't tell them what to do.

Right.

Okay.

But they're not gonna do anything until the final, until this...

That is correct.

And if they pave there, then they can dedicate this to the township.

Well, that's one of the other things that the township has to decide, because technically, as I just pointed out, it violates our ordinance. That's why a waiver was granted, and that waiver needs to be addressed. Right. If it violates our ordinance, we cannot accept dedication.

Yeah. And it seems the neighbors have some gravel there and planted some ornamental grasses at the end of that road there too.

Zach has already committed to the fact that if it's paved, okay, we will give up the liquid fuels money that we would normally get because it technically is a substandard road for liquid fuels. Right. So Zach is doing whatever he can do to make sure that at least phase two and phase three are paved.

Okay. Where will we push the snow from Elizabeth Way now that they've turned that into a grass lawn? Elizabeth, do you know? I think that... The people put the dirt across the road at the end of Elizabeth. Yeah, there's stone in there and nice ornamental grasses. Yeah. Isn't that a snow pushing easement?

No, it is not a snow pushing. It's just a right of way.

I thought it was supposed to remain a stub. That's all I know.

Just remain a stub. Remain as a stub. There is no... All that dirt right on the street, as you can see. There is no... No. There is no... You should look at that. There is no mark. There's no easement. There is no snow easement here.

No, I understand. But it's not a stub either. It's dirt. They put dirt right on the street.

Well, what you mean by a stub is it's cut off at the property line. Right. At Pottinger's property line, it's stubbed off. So it doesn't exist.

So Mrs. Pottinger doesn't use that stub.

No. She comes down to here.

Yeah.

Okay. So Zach will have to work something out as far as snow removal, which I'm sure he will, and in order to make sure that we get wearing course at least on phase two and phase three. That's the most important right now. But that has nothing to do with doing phase six?

No. None. Zach, aren't we already too late for dedication? We want that liquid fuels this year, right?

It would be, it doesn't qualify. It doesn't qualify. Yeah.

So I make a motion to adjourn the meeting.

I second.

Moved and second to adjourn the meeting. All those in favor say aye. Aye. That's good.

Let me ask one quick question so I can get my question for the next meeting correct. A couple months ago, I brought up Andrew and Justin here, and we were talking about taxes for the township, and supposedly they were supposed to look into the taxes. I would love to ask if this ever actually went anywhere, because I still want to know where the township is with IC5 and the taxes.

What are you talking about? What are you talking about? Violations of the... Justin?

They sat here, we asked a bunch of questions about the taxes and where it's being taken from.

People say that... You get up and go. You gotta tell him. The board of supervisors are working on this. All right. So those $52 for each parcel. You're last. I'll just... I will never go back to it. The township tax bureau is looking into that. The supervisors... You could ask the old guys. No, we just... Is that your drawing? Did you draw that?