Friday, June 26, 2026

Yeah, I feel that.

Yeah.

Let me call the Middlesex Township Supervisor Workshop to order. Let us rise.

(All:) I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Do we have any public comment?

Yes.

Oh, man. She's-

Yeah, right. Good

morning.

Right, just let me shoot me something.

No, I'm kidding.

Good morning. Yep. All right. First of all, I'd like to thank the township-

Presiding officer: Your name and address, please.

Jim Gehr: Oh, sorry. Jim Gehr, Spring Road. I'd like to thank the township leadership team and also the board of supervisors for recent improvements in listening to the residents, specifically the much improved Middlesex Connections Summer 2026 issue, extremely well done. The pages that were added were very beneficial and appreciated by the residents. So look forward to that continuing, but excellent work. As well, improved content posted on the Middlesex website, again, excellent work, good improvement and such.

So, genuinely, sincerely, thank you very much. There is a little bit more improvement opportunity, and I wanted to go over that this morning. Having sat on the planning commission for the last six months, most activity occurs at the last minute and really unnecessary and very inconsistent with any work and, and, and

and procedures that, that occur.

Agendas are published regularly at four AM on Friday prior to the planning commission meeting on Monday at seven PM. I don't know how many of you work every other weekend, the planning commission does, really unnecessarily and actually inadequate time. Inadequate time to review documentation, inadequate research, with inadequate dialogue during the meeting.

So

the residents obviously observe the chaos that occurs during the planning commission meeting because we're really just trying to catch up. And, you know, it really doesn't allow for what should be proper dialogue. It's really catching up and learning what's in front of you. Also, residents have no opportunity to plan or attend meetings. The May 26th meeting was canceled via email at three fifty-seven Friday prior to meeting, wrecks everyone's schedule. I mean, people make for that in time. June 8th meeting was canceled via email at one PM, six hours prior to the meeting that evening and rescheduled for June twenty-second. Not normal, not good activity.

The majority of documentation necessary for review is shared regularly for Friday, as I said. For Monday's June twenty-second meeting, this past Monday, eighty-eight pages of information was provided on Friday, June nineteenth at two twelve. Eighty-eight pages for a meeting held that Monday at seven. As well, the agenda provided request for approval of minutes from the May 11th meeting, which were not attached for review. I think, and I, I found them, I think they came on Monday, prior, or the day of the meeting, from our past manager. So I have three recommendations, that agendas are published the Monday prior to the planning commission meeting to allow for appropriate time.

That review materials are published through Wednesday prior to the planning commission meeting, again, to allow for appropriate review. And lastly, the

third one

that planning commission meetings draft are shared and posted on the township website within forty-eight hours of each meeting. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Good morning. My name is Vazquez, Buckeye Lane, Country Manor West. I have a question for Mr. Carpenter. What paper, Mr. Carpenter, what paper do you use for make rezoning area for Country Manor West?

Mrs. Vazquez, this is a comment only section-

Hilda Vazquez: I know.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... not a question and answer.

Hilda Vazquez: I know.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: He's not gonna answer your questions.

I have a question because I have to tell him.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Well, this is-- You can tell him-

Hilda Vazquez: This township-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: But he's not gonna give you an answer this morning.

Hilda Vazquez: Excuse me. This township don't have any information for Country Manor West. I have a conversation here. If you wanna make the rezoning Country Manor West, you have to have this township that's supposed to have formal application, property documentation, conceptual plan, technical justification, public hearing. This township don't have any paper for Country Manor West. What paper, what method he used for rezoning? That's my comment, my question. I want discovery what documentation he used for rezoning. Because I have a conversation where I obtained by Right-to-Know with him, that he said the township don't have any information for Country Manor West. What documentation he used for rezoning Country Manor West or Fourth if you don't have any documentation?

No blueprints, no nothing. That's why I'm coming talk here.

Thank you. Anyone else? Seeing none, let's go on to our-

Yeah.

To our first agenda, discussion and possible motion to authorize the solicitor to obtain an advisory from the State Ethics Commission on a potential conflict of interest.

Gentlemen, I put this on the agenda. You're gonna see later on in the agenda a discussion concerning a solar energy system for Cumberland County.

Right.

I think there's gonna be a presentation on that. And the reason I'm asking for your approval to ask for an ethics advisory from the Ethics Commission is because we have, of course, your vice chairman

uh- I was thinking the same thing

... being related to a Cumberland County commissioner. So I would foresee that Cumberland County will be making a formal request, possibly at some time, and I wanna be sure in order to advise Mr. Neiderer-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Yeah.

Keith O. Brenneman:... that he does not have a conflict of interest. And we can do that by you authorizing me to submit a letter to the Ethics Commission for an advisory

opinion on that matter.

So-

So moved. Second. All in favor? Aye.

Okay. We have two in favor. Mr. Neiderer did not vote, and I asked him not to. Okay

cool.

Thank you.

Okay. Next, discussion on potential solar energy system for Cumberland County on Army Heritage Drive. No code.

Kirk, Kirk, it might be better if you just set up here-

Unidentified speaker: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Kirk Stoner:... and so anyone else who wants to join you from the county with microphones, even better. Just make sure they're pulled

up close to you.

Your mic's off.

Okay. There we go. Yeah. We're on? Okay. All right. Thanks to the board for having us this morning. I'm Kirk Stoner. I'm the Director of Planning for Cumberland County. Brought a few other folks with me. I have Paul Landers, who's our Chief Financial Officer with the county. Brent Durham, who's our Chief of Facilities Director, and also Doug Knight from Greenworks, Seth Berry from SRE, Solar Renewable Energy. They're our vendor for our solar project. So the purpose of our presentation today is twofold. One, to give you an update where we stand with our project, and the other is to get guidance from the board on what our next steps should be.

So just some quick background. The county owns four parcels of land off of Army Heritage Drive, so west of the old nursing home, across from Army Heritage Education Center, then on the kinda east side of I-81, all totaling about 140 acres. So when you look at that land, it's available there for us to use. Over the course of the years, we've done some light studies on what we'd wanna do with that land in the future, and really haven't had any real projects that we wanted to do before. Most recently, back in 2024, we did a feasibility study to see if we did a solar project on any of that land, how would it benefit the county.

A feasibility study was completed in 2024, and it came back and showed us there was a lot of potential for solar on the site, and also a lot of benefit for the county for doing a project there. So in 2025, the board authorized us to release an RFP, a request for proposals, for potential vendors to develop that site. Went through an RFP process. We got to the spring, we're about ready to approve it, and some issues cropped up. We decided to put the project on hold, and we paused it until this year. We re-released the RFP, really to kind of two things, to see if the project's still viable, you know, because things have changed at the federal level, things have changed at the state level.

To see if the project still had as much opportunity for us as it did a year earlier. And also to see if there were vendors that were still interested. So what we saw was there was a big response. We had eight firms come back, submit an RFP. We also saw that through their submissions, this project was still very much viable for us, and one that we'd like to pursue. So in the end, we selected Greenworks and SRE. They're teaming up for this one. They're the largest solar developers in Pennsylvania, so their portfolio is very thick. They're very familiar with how to work with school districts and municipalities to get these projects done, and they're very familiar with the benefits that they can bring to their clients.

Our project will be located on a 21-acre parcel, just east of I-81, so if you know where the LNG facility is, just south of that. We gave the LNG facility... Thanks, Zachary. There you go. You can see I-81, a big, a pink dot. That would be our site for this project. As you're aware, we gave the LNG facility the access road. We negotiated the access road with them to reach their site. That site's twenty-one acres. Our project will cover about fifteen acres in solar panels. It'll be a net metered project, about four point five, uh, eight megawatt or four point eight five megawatts.

That would cover ninety-eight percent of the county's electric use within all of our buildings within a two-mile radius of that. So you look at that, it nearly covers all of our electric use. So it really gets to the heart of this issue of why is Cumberland County doing this?

And we're doing this because of financial savings.

So when you look at this, over the cost of the thirty-year term of this agreement with SRE and Greenworks, it's gonna save us nineteen million dollars. So from the staff standpoint, I know, you know, Paul, Paul's our new CFO, we're constantly challenged by the board to identify ways that we can save money. When we save money, that saves our residents and our taxpayers money, and also allows us to deliver more services and pursue other capital projects. This project is a major savings for us, and one that then we can do other new capital projects.

You know, we're looking at a new courthouse at some point. There's always service gaps for us of not having enough resources to provide the services we need to provide. This project helped to close that gap. So when you look at it, schedule-wise, you know, we're just starting. We selected SRE. We're going through some of the initial due diligence on the project. If we were to move ahead with this, we think that we could have the project completed by May 2028. So some of the unique aspects of this project. So, you know, as my day job of planning director, we can see all the developments throughout the county.

I see these solar projects come up, and there's always some consternation with them. But I believe this one's a little unique. You know, we have a project that's gonna be right next to I-81. You know, in terms of desirability of land for, you know, another use for housing, not so much.

Uh

I think we have topography and natural vegetation. This project sits down. We have natural vegetation surrounding it. It's not right in someone's backyard where they have to look at it with no screening or buffering. Kurt?

Yeah. Is that close to our well, our newest well?

Kirk Stoner: No. Your newest well is further back on our site.

Presiding officer: Okay. I was just trying to figure it from here. Yeah.

Yeah, so we're still-- we're working on that too, Don. So we're-

Presiding officer: Cool.

Kirk Stoner:... you know, we're moving that-

Back a bit.

Yeah, so I think, you know, having the location of it is a good location where we're not gonna have land use compatibility issues. Also, it keeps this land in a less intensive use for, we have a thirty-year agreement that we'd probably execute with SRE and Greenworks. So really this parcel of land, you're not gonna see any intense development on it. And as I said earlier, we do have a facilities master plan where we're looking at some potential new construction. There are opportunities then to capture additional savings as we see new buildings built at some point in the future that may be within two miles of this site.

So I have, Zach has that up. Zach, do you wanna scroll to the next piece? So they can see kinda the layout of how things look and what the proposal would be. So why we're here today, then. So that's kind of the project overview. Why are we here today? So we've informally discussed this project with your staff during a recent zoning ordinance update. So we were really pleased to be able to work with your staff as we went through that. Principal solar energy systems, it was a permitted use by conditional use in the institutional district in several of the drafts including the March twenty draft.

And then when the June twenty-five draft came out, the one that was adopted, the principal solar in the institutional district was pulled out as a conditional use. I'm not sure how it happened. It wasn't anything that we were made aware of. As we worked back and forth with the township on a lot of the other changes to the document, we were clear and made aware of a lot of the other changes that were there through our review. We have a review responsibility with the municipality's planning codes, if you're all aware of doing that. So some of these other changes, we were made aware of.

This one, we weren't. So we were left... I'm not sure if it was administrative error, I'm not sure if it was intentional. To me that doesn't matter at this point. We're simply coming to the board now. And really I think that's the ask today, of getting your guidance on what the next steps would be for us. Is this something that, you know, you've looked at your records and do think this is an administrative error that you would correct, or is it something you would prefer that we follow the traditional zoning ordinance amendment, and then we follow that process and submit something for your review?

I'll leave it at that. Paul, guys from SRE, anything anybody else have anything you wanted to-

Unidentified speaker: Questions. Questions.

Yeah.

Happy to answer questions.

What did you say it was gonna generate how much to support the county?

Ninety-eight percent of our energy needs.

I thought it was yours. From what point? I'm

sorry, Keith? Ninety-eight percent of the county's energy needs from what radius from this point of location?

Correct. So it's within a two-mile radius.

Presiding officer: Okay. Go ahead.

So, yeah, so this solar array being net metered, it has to be within a two-mile radius of an owned property.

Presiding officer: Okay.

Unidentified speaker from the county solar team: This solar array will be a fifteen properties, fifteen utility meters that will fall into this-

Presiding officer: Okay.

Unidentified speaker from the county solar team:... into this net metering rule. The solar array will, the first year, will generate six point five million kW hours, kilowatt hours per year. Last year, 2025, we used about six point seven in those fifteen properties.

Thank you. Mm-hmm.

Interesting.

Billy, you got anything? Yeah. You're looking

for some action today? No

no action today. I think we're really looking for guidance.

You know, I could see two paths. You know, one, if the township believes there was an administrative error, that they would do an amendment on theirs. They would submit an amendment to their own ordinance. If they would prefer that we submit one on behalf of the county, we could do that. So just figure out which path to go.

Like, you heard what the first item of business was this morning.

Kirk Stoner: Yeah.

Keith O. Brenneman: Obviously, Mr. Neiderer can't participate in any discussion of that until we get some indication as to whether or not there's a conflict.

Kirk Stoner: Mm-hmm.

Keith O. Brenneman: So I can't speak for the other two supervisors. They can, of course, speak for themselves, but Mr. Neiderer, at my request-

Mm-hmm.

... will not be participating in any discussion for that.

Yeah, we're gonna hold off until we get a response back from the attorney.

Sure.

So I'm not throwing myself out there, to be honest with you. That's fine.

Fully respected. Looks good, though. Okay.

I've got another call.

So then you guys, when we get that back, you'll notify us, and then we can stop back out and talk more then. If you have more information you need in the interim, please let us know and we'll be glad to get it back to you.

Thanks for coming.

Hey, no problem. Thanks for having us out.

Have a good one.

Getting up this early.

Okay, next up, discussion and possible motion on preliminary final land development plan for... Solar Development. Who's gonna talk? Oh, there they are. This-

Here.

Yeah.

Morning. My name's Garrett Warner. I'm joined with Justin from Scale Microgrids. I'm with Morris Knowles, and I'm consulting engineer-

Presiding officer: Can you talk into that microphone and make sure it's on?

Garrett Warner: Is it... Can you hear me?

Yes.

All right.

Thank you.

Yes. I'll start over. Morning, my name is Garrett. I'm with Morris Knowles & Associates, the consulting engineer for this project. I'm joined with Justin today with Scale Microgrids, the applicant for this project. Today we are proposing and looking for preliminary final approval of a solar field project located along Shady Lane. It is about a 2.3 megawatt facility. For reference, on the screen, the plan that we have pulled up, to the left of the screen is Shady Lane. In the bottom of the screen is the I-81. This project is located on the old Delhaize property. The applicant is just leasing the property.

They did not purchase this property. This will only be a 20 to 30-year lease agreement, and then the solar field will be removed at that time. We worked with Bud for a few round of comments. The proposed solar array, as you can see, we provide screening along the front, provide any sort of visual buffer between the residents that are located along Shady Lane, and we'll also have access directly off of Shady Lane. We've gone through a few rounds of comments with Bud. We've addressed those comments up until this point, unless there are any remaining comments, and we'd be happy to address those.

There was some initial issues with the site getting access for construction. As you know, Shady Lane has a bridge that only has a 10-ton limit. We did propose a temporary bridge crossing, which I've pulled up on the screen. The intent of this would be to place a temporary bridge during the construction process. Construction is estimated to last anywhere from three to five months, at which time that temporary bridge would be removed. We would have to get all the proper permits through DEP, the EPA permit. Also during the time, residents would have access to use the bridge, and during construction, they would have to give right of way to any residents crossing the bridge.

However, as I'm sure you're well aware, there were three conditions placed on us from the recommendation of approval from Planning Commission. One of which was to obtain some type of agreement with the neighboring Beatty property for emergency service access. Since the Planning Commission meeting on Monday, the applicant has reached out to the Beattys, and they have, I won't say come to an agreement, but they are in discussions of that agreement. At which time, if the agreement is accepted, this temporary bridge would not be necessary. They would use that existing gravel access road from Stambaugh Lane to Shady Lane for construction purposes, so this temporary bridge crossing would no longer be needed.

I'll leave that to Justin.

Yeah. Yeah, Justin... from Scale Microgrids. So we were able to contact Erica Beatty, and I think she's here.

There's a hand in the back.

Yeah. Okay. So we spoke to Erica yesterday a little bit, and, you know, so we were able to agree to come to an agreement, right? So no agreement's formally in place yet, but the idea is that when her brother comes back from vacation on Sunday, we will draft a form agreement. We'll sit down with the family. We'll talk to them and also work towards bringing the deed restriction back. So we understand that that's been an issue in the past. And so we had made the recommendation to go ahead and work with her to bring that deed restriction back on the property as well.

So I think that was a major condition as of the approval from Monday night that we wanted to go ahead and try to address. And I think we've done that to, you know, the best we can in the last couple of days, and we've committed to continue working with them, as well as upgrading the road, right? I know Ed Beam had provided some feedback on the road. You know, we had done a quick analysis of the road. It looks like the road's in pretty good shape, but we'll work with that as well to make sure that the road can support the fire equipment-

Presiding officer: As necessary.

In the event of a fire, you know, fingers crossed none of those things happen. We do select pretty good equipment, but there's always a chance.

Presiding officer: This is, the road you're talking about is Sha- it's the access road.

Justin: Private access road, yeah. So if we were able to come to an agreement, and I don't want to say it like that, I mean, we're gonna come to an agreement, we've already committed to that, with Erica and the family. So once we come to an agreement, I will say, the private, or excuse me, the temporary bridge idea would no longer be necessary.

That would just be for private vehicle or traffic as necessary, and we would then utilize the private access road for all construction vehicles. Once the work was done, you know, if there was any damage that occurred during the construction process, we would repair that accordingly.

Presiding officer: Bud, what do you got? Good

morning. This plan-

Presiding officer: I like the plan.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... was subject to quite a bit of discussion at the planning commission.

Presiding officer: I know. You were there.

Gerald "Bud" Grove: First of all, relative to subdivision land development ordinance requirements, the plan meets all plan requirements. The issue that was discussed were, well, the two that were identified by this, during this presentation were EIA comments, which are subjective.

Presiding officer: Right.

Gerald "Bud" Grove: They address the requirements of the ordinance by identifying the

impacts

and they address the ordinance requirements by proposing mitigation to those impacts. I advised the planning commission that the proposed mitigation is, again, subjective.

Presiding officer: Right.

Gerald "Bud" Grove: Township does not have a requirement that says your mitigation plan is good, you meet an approval. I suggested to them that they provide comment to you about how they feel about, they being the planning commission, how they feel about the proposed mitigation for this project. That would be the access during construction, but it primarily centered around the emergency-

Presiding officer: Emergency.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... access was the hot topic. And Jim Gehr made a proposal and was backed by other members of the planning commission to attach a condition that, while Jim is here, let me just throw the floor to him to have him explain what his proposal or proposed condition was.

Mm-hmm.

Thanks, Bud.

First of all, I think this is evidence that the process works, right? I'd like to thank the Beattys for taking conversation about a improved solution, and that's really what the planning commission was after-

Presiding officer: Mm-hmm.

Jim Gehr:... was an improved solution. Because what we learned is that, you know, there's already a few instances where the bridge limits are being exceeded, but the real concern was long term. And, Ed, we read your report. You had two paragraphs. You have to read them entirely to get his direction, but he strongly recommended that the parties come together, all stakeholders, in having a permanent emergency fire remedy to allow fire trucks to access the property on site, not by stretching hoses at some distance with no ladder or anything like that.

And that really was the recommendation of the planning commission. So we had made the recommendation back on May 26th, and the applicant chose not to act on it. They just ignored it. Since Monday, in a few days, they've made great progress. And so I look forward to a satisfactory resolution, and the planning commission's recommendation is to delay approval and finish the negotiation and reach agreement on emergency access for fire. Thank you.

So a good question, and maybe some of this is for the road master, too. The current bridge is rated for 10 tons. Yeah

You said eight. Eight. He said eight. Well, I, Bud said eight. No, I- There's actually two ratings on it. There's eight ton for a single vehicle and then a combination of the 16. It-

Presiding officer: What

it's- It's 10 tons single unit, 16 ton combination.

Yeah, but the bridge gets inspected. It is one of the ones on the county program, so it gets inspected every other year, along with some of our other bridges in the area.

But it's a township-owned bridge?

It is. Okay.

So currently if there was a fire, God forbid, in the Beatty property, of course new house being built there, by your brother, I believe. And he was here at the last supervisors meeting, raised some concerns about the removal of the deed restrictions, which I'll ask about shortly. But if there's currently a fire, I'm sure Ed will tell us that a fire truck weighs a lot more than 10 tons.

Yeah.

So if there currently would be a fire on that property, what would happen? Well, the fire truck would stop at the bridge. There'd be a sign. They'd know the rating, and they would stop and hand carry hoses from the truck? Right. Right.

The closest hydrant is 600 feet from the edge of the bridge. What we would have to do is stop. We have what we call LDH, long distance, large diameter hose. The five-inch hose, we would have to hand lay that line across the bridge to the scene. That is very heavy. It takes more than one or two people to take and lift a roll of this five-inch hose-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Mm-hmm.

Chief Edwin Beam:... hose, fifty feet long. So you can imagine how much feet with, with how many sections of hose this is gonna take, and how much time it's gonna take to lay all that hose across.

And then from that point, we would have a, what we call a monitor or a device that would be like a Siamese that would split the, from the LDH, long distant, the large diameter hose, we would split it down into a couple sections of fire line, which we would use for a fire attack. That all taking place, we're talking about an extensive amount of time. Water would be supplied through the hydrant, we would be supplied there. The problem with it is, if we don't have our equipment on the scene, if we need a pike pole, we need ladders or something else to augment the fire attack, then we would have to hand carry all that back and forth.

And it takes a large number of people-

It makes it-

... firefighters to do that. So it would... Right now, we have been lucky, we have not had that, been faced with that situation. This exacerbates, obviously, the whole situation. The fact that if we have a major fire attack at this site, then we would have to have more water coming in, and this access road would provide the ability for us to bring our tanker, tankers, which supplies water for the engine, and can hold anywhere between five hundred and seven hundred and fifty feet, seven hundred gallon of water. That's not a whole lot to fight major fires.

So we would supplement that with our tanker operations, which would give us probably five tankers at twenty-five hundred gallons, would probably give us close to fifteen thousand gallons of water

additional to the hydrant

that we should be able to use.

Okay. So the bridge, I assume, garbage trucks go over the bridge? Garbage trucks weigh a lot more than ten tons, so how does a garbage truck violate the weight limit on the bridge? I mean, currently it's the only access, so how they do it?

We also take our plow truck over the bridge.

Steve?

Garbage trucks are twenty and forty ton.

And

in that range, depending on the type of vehicle.

Presiding officer: Bud, go ahead.

Gerald "Bud" Grove: In preparation for this meeting, I consulted with Keith about the legalities of access across the bridge. And Keith-

Presiding officer: I know.

Gerald "Bud" Grove: I don't want to speak for you, but provided some information. Do you care to comment please?

Yeah, the state law allows, of course, limitations on bridges. But it does exempt, I think, emergency vehicles. And I'm not an engineer. I don't know how... So, so obviously, heavy vehicles that exceed the limitation, like fire trucks, can go over without violating the law. I don't know about trash trucks. I can't imagine that it'll be illegal for you plowing on the other side of that bridge. But my point is, there is an exemption. The question is, how much is too much-

Presiding officer: Yeah.

Keith O. Brenneman:... to put on a bridge subject to weight limit?

That's a good point. Even legally is one thing. How much damage can be imposed on that bridge, even by one crossing of a fire truck, one crossing back and forth of a garbage truck, one or two crossings of, quite honestly, the township's tri-axles during the winter for snow plowing. And there's such a thing as, you know, structurally, you may not see it initially, the damage, but there's a series of using them off at one creates fatigue in the structure, and it's hard to see that damage until there's a catastrophic failure. So God forbid, if Ed decided to cross that bridge, or a garbage truck decided to cross that bridge, or one of the township trucks, quite honestly, decided to cross that bridge, even though legally allowed-

Presiding officer: Hm.

there could be a failure.

And the other point-

Presiding officer: If my- Yeah.

Keith O. Brenneman: The other point, Bud, I'm sorry to interrupt you, is that you can impose weight limitations, but you can also permit exceptions to that, like the developer is asking for under the state law, but that is entirely discretionary on your behalf. So their idea of putting a temporary bridge to take construction equipment over the bridge to the other side is something you don't have to grant. So I'm glad to hear that they're working on an agreement with the Beattys to have this issue resolved because if I understand what I've just heard, if that agreement is reached, there is no need for them to use the bridge to transfer construction equipment to the site.

Right.

And I don't know where that leaves you, but I will stop now that I have some ideas about how you might proceed.

Well, I have a question for you. I know that area pretty well over there, and there's, I'm gonna call it a dirt road up right almost next to the interstate that comes from Stambaugh straight across. That's it. Well, I wouldn't think that would take an awful lot to improve as a backup. I don't think it needs to be-

Garrett Warner: Hey, that's, that's the

lane you're talking about. Yes. That is the private drive where it's, we're in agreements with-

Presiding officer: Okay.

Garrett Warner:... the neighboring property. I mean, that shouldn't be a big deal. It can

be improved to, for emergency purposes. That's what

I'm talking about, yeah.

Yeah. Just for emergency purposes.

Yeah. So I'm assuming Stambaugh Lane is a township-owned road.

Unidentified speaker: It is, yeah. Yes.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: So obviously this is not the level of construction that you're seeing with PAX-1. They've bonded the road and will make repairs to that road if that project goes forward. So how about bonding the road-

Mm.

... Stambaugh Lane, which is, it just goes back to two homes. Yeah. There's Gable's Garage, and there's another farm-

Unidentified speaker: Yeah.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: there. Sure. Yeah. So it's obviously not getting heavy traffic. Is there any talk about bonding that road to repair it? Yes. We would have to bond Cherry

Lane. Cherry Lane is

10 ton weight limit, so the little

portion from the existing gravel access road from the Beattys' property

to the proposed access to the site, that would need to be bonded as well as Stambaugh Lane as

well. Yeah. Stambaugh, the, with the township portion of the access-

Justin: Right.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... the emergency access, just like any other construction project-

Right.

... would have to be bonded.

Right.

We have the excess weight bond for it. That's standard.

Right. So

to answer your question, Bill, yes.

And the gate is currently locked at the end of the dirt road?

No. Currently it's being used. My brother's house is being built. Right. So the road is being used currently to bring equipment over for building his house.

And so as part of the agreement, once this construction will be complete, that you would allow a Knox box to be placed on the gate to allow emergency services to get in?

Yes. As long as we come to an agreement, yes. Okay.

Question I would have, who's going to maintain this road? Particularly in the wintertime, who's going to shovel the snow and maintain this?

That would obviously be my job, because we own the road, and it's a private road. Mm-hmm. So we would maintain it during the snow season.

Sure.

I didn't know if she said she'd-

Presiding officer: She, they

Dr. Phil Neiderer: would maintain it themselves-

Presiding officer: Okay.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... as private owners. Well, it would seem to me there's questions to be answered here. I guess the other question, and maybe this is not something I can get an answer to, but Mr. Beatty was here at the last meeting and, you know, was surprised that AHBL unilaterally removed some deed restrictions. The solicitor said, you know, that as a township, we don't get involved in private deed restrictions. But you're stating that those deed restrictions that were removed are gonna be placed back on the property. Is that correct? Well

what we're talking about with AHBL right now with our legal team, is getting those deed restrictions placed back on the property as Ms. Beatty has requested. So we are going to try very hard to get those back in place with AHBL. We think that there's a path to get there. And at, you know, right now I don't have an answer as to whether or not that's going to happen, but we are working with our legal team on their path to do that.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Is it within our rights to know what the deed restrictions are?

It's a public... We know what the-

Yeah.

... deed restrictions were before they were removed, because it's public record.

Can you review those for us? Is that easy to review quickly for the public, what those deed restrictions were that were removed? I do not know them off-- I do not personally know them. I

do. She does.

Of course I do.

Mm-hmm.

So the deed restrictions, one talks about having appropriate trees lining the property that butts up against Stuart and Amanda Beatty's property where they're building a house. Another one talks about the distance from, I think it's either the center of the road or the edge of the road to the beginning of their construction. I thought it was initially 450 feet. My brother said I was mistaken. He said it's 500. Yes. On top of that, where the road is, the deed restrictions state it is across from, it's on the tree line butting the Hoffman's property, and Beatty and Beatty, or Stuart and Amanda Beatty, there is a access road.

So that is also in the floodplain, and it is across from Country Air Kennels Road. So the deed restrictions currently have the road there. They're proposing to put the road on the other side of Stuart and Amanda Beatty's property. And it is, the way my brother and I and my mother, who's also here, it is a

all for one deal.

If the deed restrictions cannot be put back on, the deal cannot go through. So, and that is a family decision. So that's where we're coming from.

Thank you. The road that is being put on the other side is the access driveway, I assume, is what Mrs. Beatty was talking about, the access driveway into the solar array field?

Yes.

Yes. I believe so.

It's the acc- It's a driveway.

Mm-hmm.

Right? Correct, yes. So it's-

Erica Beatty: And-

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... it's not a road, it's a driveway.

Yes. Okay. So it seems to me like the best thing to do is to let you folks work on your agreement and come back to us in the future once you have an agreement, and then we'll make decisions at that time. So we're not gonna act on anything today. We'll come back to you and talk to that.

What is the timeline mark for action on the agreement?

The question is, do we need an extension for-

Unidentified speaker: No. They gave an extension already I think it's-

Unidentified speaker: Two.

Presiding officer: is it

September?

(Crosstalk; Phil Neiderer.) Do you remember? Yeah, I think it was September.

Yeah, I think it was September. Yeah, I think it was September. Yeah. So it seems like we have plenty of time for you folks to work it out, and then come back to us-

Presiding officer: Yeah.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... before the summer's over.

Could we request a decision with the condition that if a decision agreement is made with the Beattys?

I don't think I'm in favor of that. I think I would wait for you folks to work on your agreement, and you come back to us when everything's buttoned down, and then we'll make a decision. Okay? Good. Thank you. I have a question.

Right where all of this is going in, how much of that abuts the Letort Spring? None. None. It- The bridge goes over it. Right, but the bridge is

I think it's a distance away from-

Garrett Warner: Correct.

Gerald "Bud" Grove: It gets shown

on the top-

Garrett Warner: On the plans here-

Presiding officer: Yeah.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... the Letort Spring Run is shown at the top. Yes. Right there's... Right. And the property line, show where the property line is. So the property line runs right along here. And the Letort Spring is north of that. You can see that?

Yeah. This is the property line right here. Where's the floodplain, Karen?

So the floodway is this red dashed area. The floodplain would be the light blue dash and this tan dash. And

it... The solar field sits high. Yeah. Like, well north. Nothing in the floodplain. Correct. There's nothing. We are 150 feet required setback because it's a high-quality watershed as well.

Anybody have anything else? I got a question.

Are you currently leasing the property, or does it... Ahold owns the property, right?

Ahold owns it, and we're leasing it from them.

You are currently leasing it. Yes. Okay. Currently, who is responsible for cutting the weeds on that property?

We are. It's happening on Monday.

Okay. Thank you.

It covers that well. Very good. Makes Harry happy.

I just wanna make a comment. I wanna thank all involved because this really got fairly heated on at the planning commission meeting, the discussions back and forth on this. And as far as the planning commission is concerned, we got into some heavy discussions as well, between myself and members of the planning commission in trying to explain what the responsibilities were. So I thank you very much.

And I also wanna thank Jerry for bringing that up because I was contacted by a local farmer. There's invasive weeds in that field that are getting ready to bloom. Those Canadian fleabane, and it's a noxious, invasive weed that's very damaging to the neighboring farms. And I'm glad to know that it's being cut on Monday, and hopefully you'll have a maintenance program moving forward throughout the summer. That's critical for our local farmers who are farming adjacent fields. Thank you.

Thank you, guys. Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Okay. Discussion and possible motion on extension

for preliminary land development plan for Pennsylvania Digital Tax along phase three.

Thank you. We got them now, Bud.

Thank you.

That's Mark. Oh, Mark. Time extension is Mark. We got

you should have a letter in front of you there, from PA Data Center

Partner.

Oh, yeah.

There it is.

They're asking for an extension.

Mark, did they give a reason why they're asking for an extension?

It says

"Carlisle Development Partners LLC, the applicant under the above referenced plan, hereby extends the 90-day deadline under Section 508 of MPC for action on the above plan to permit action to occur on or before August 5th, 2026."

They're granting the extension. We just accept it or we deny the plan. I'm not sure

the reason.

The other- The reason is it's gonna expire on July 1st. So we'll have to deny the plan on July 1st, unless we allow the extension.

That is a reason. I assume they have more work to do to address-

Mark D. Carpenter: Yeah.

Presiding officer:... the comments. They do. They have ongoing

ongoing review.

Okay. I got no problem with that. Okay. Then I'll make a motion to grant the extension review time for the preliminary land development plan for PAX-1, phase three. Second. Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Okay. Next up, continued discussion and possible motion on request to release maintenance security for Jack Williams Land Development in the amount of $27,483.21.

Thank you. This... Jack Williams, I've been in touch with him-

Presiding officer: Right.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... more than once over the last month. They have made progress in working with and going out for bid to contractors. It looks like they have selected a contractor. I don't know who it is. There's some timing issues as far as getting materials to the site and getting it constructed. They submitted... There's two letters, but the main letter that really counts is the one from the developer, Carlisle Realty Holdings Inc, asking the board to grant them a 30-day extension on the expiration date of the existing letter of credit we're holding.

The existing letter of credit expires on July 10th. They're asking for another 30 days

and

quite honestly, I'd like to give them a little extra buffer instead of coming back here all the time. So I have a... I'm recommending that the extension go to the last meeting we are holding in August, which I think is August... I don't have a calendar. I do have a calendar. 31, 28. 28th. I feel confident that they are cooperating, so I, because they are cooperating and making progress, I'm recommending we extend-

So you want us to extend their-

Gerald "Bud" Grove: Letter of credit.

Presiding officer:... letter of credit until? August 28th. 28 August.

Yeah. They have until August 28th to do the, whatever work they need to do. Yes. We need to extend the let- have the letter of credit extended, right?

Yes. Right now the letter of credit expires July 10th. We're asking that it be extended to August 28th. So you want a motion to extend the letter of credit from-

Presiding officer: July 10th to August 28th.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... to August 28th.

Deny the request for release of maintenance security.

That's correct.

Got it. Now, does that also include some of the landscaping? I drove by there-

Gerald "Bud" Grove: That's where a lot of it is.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... this week, and there's dead trees and... That's

where a lot of it is. The landscaping, it covers the stormwater management basins which have been cleaned up and cleared out of all dead material.

Okay.

I'm not aware of any additional dead trees that are there. But this is primarily for the islands-

Presiding officer: Yeah.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... in the parking lot that have been run over. No grass is growing. Sediment is running off into the parking lot-

Presiding officer: Yeah.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... into the basins, which it's supposed to, but not sediment, and the islands are being destroyed. And that's part of the site improvements is building those islands. So this is for improving the islands so that they are not disturbed, to control the erosion coming off of them-

Yeah.

... by putting up bollards around the islands. If you go by there now, you'll see there's big boulders that are there.

Presiding officer: Right.

Gerald "Bud" Grove: If you remember in last month's meeting I explained-

Presiding officer: Right.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... those boulders have been hit and moved actually by

vehicles.

By vehicles. Correct. That's what- So they are not adequate. So they are going to be removed and replaced by four bollards around the perimeter-

Presiding officer: Yeah.

Gerald "Bud" Grove:... of the islands. I can go by again and see what trees are dead, but when I inspected it there were no dead trees. Yeah. I was there just a few

days ago.

There was a lot, I think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I'll go back and look.

Where were they?

They're right along Harmony Hall. Yeah. The little shrubs you're talking about? Well, they were maybe four feet high. I'll go back and look again. Yeah. All right. Then I'll make a motion to deny the release of maintenance security for Jack Williams Land Development in the amount of $27,483.21 and to extend... I don't know what we're extending. The letter of credit-

Zach Zook: For-

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... maintenance security to-

Zach Zook: August 28th.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... 28 August. So we extend the letter of credit for maintenance till August

28th

2026. That's right.

Do I have a second?

Second. All those in

favor? Aye. Okay. Discussion possible. Motion to approve installation of new fob readers for keyless access to municipal building by Hilton Security for $5,325 and zero cents.

Go ahead, sir.

So previously you guys did make a motion to have work on upgrading-

Presiding officer: Right.

Zach Zook:... the software behind the system, some of the hardware devices. All that's left was the actual readers at the doors that you go in. Originally we thought that our newer higher security fobs would be compatible with our old readers, but they are not. So Hilton is suggesting that we actually go and replace the readers, to actually change the same style that we have in the systems. So currently they're HID, which is a brand. They're gonna go to a PDK brand. And then PDK sells those higher security fobs as well.

So what you have before you is the cost of updating the readers on this building and some of the other buildings that we have the keyless access to. And then this will also be split with the municipal authority. I've given a copy of this to Lori already. So they don't have to approve it yet. I hear later in July before we actually go ahead and do it, but get your guys' approval and then

they

can approve it as

well, so. Other than the fobs, will we still be able to use the card? Mm-hmm. Okay, cool.

So the MTMA is gonna pay 30% of the bill? Yeah. Okay. Why don't they pay all of it as they own the building?

Well, you're pushing your luck again.

Pass this away and we'll be some gravy train.

Okay.

We're about to own that thing. How am I getting credit? And I think what I was surprised, you said the fobs that we currently have are actually reproducible. You could take that to Walmart and-

Zach Zook: Yeah.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... and reproduce that fob and people could get into the building. Yeah. 90 mile a secret. Yeah. I'm sure this is pretty easy for people using-

Zach Zook: Yeah.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... AI to figure out. It said the new fob, they're not readable, so Which is hence why we need to-

Zach Zook: Yeah.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... have the expense. Right. Yeah. Okay, so we need a motion. Yeah. So I'll make a motion to approve installation of new fob readers for keyless access to municipal building by Hilton Security in the amount of $5,325 and zero cents.

Anybody second? Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries. Next up

discussion and possible motion into approving selling a 2020 Ford Explorer and Kubota zero-turn mower at CapCOG auction on July 15th. This is the

first year that Middlesex has been a member of the CapCOG. Every year CapCOG puts on an auction for surplus items, stuff that municipalities and sales school districts are part of this as well. They sell different items. And they use that as a fundraiser for the organization. But also, obviously, you get money through the sale of your items at this. So this year I was recommending we have the old police car. It was one of the marked patrol cars. We removed the decals, the lights and everything off this car, and it's ready to sell.

And then we have one of our park mowers that we've replaced. And I was recommending that we sell both of those at the COG auction this year.

So when you say they're using it as a fundraiser, they don't keep a portion of our sale? 22%, 20%

22.

Yeah, I think that's split. So the auctioneer gets a portion of it, and then there's a portion of it that actually stays for the COG as a fundraiser-

Presiding officer: For the COG.

Zach Zook:... and then, yeah, we get the rest of it. How, how

would this compare to us selling these on Municibid? Municibid.

Obviously the end price would probably be close to the same, but if you lose a little bit in that-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Compensation.

Zach Zook:... yeah, as far as the auctioneer will take a little bit, and then the CapCOG will take a little bit for their work.

Yeah.

Yeah, and people remember we approved in January joining CapCOG, the Capital Area Council of Government. It's just a regional conglomeration of municipalities. And, I don't know, the school districts are part of it as well. Yeah. And one of the big benefits for Middlesex Township is particularly buying salt in the winter. Yes. And I think you said if we had had a contract with CapCOG, we would've saved 20, a couple thousand dollars this past winter. So that's why we decided to join them. And plus, it is a good organization. They have a lot of information.

They have a good part-time staff that if you ask them questions to send out Survey Monkeys to all their participants. You get a lot of good information back. Salary surveys, how people are handling meetings, et cetera, et cetera. So I think it's a good organization, and I don't have any problem with us-

Unidentified speaker: I do.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... participating in this. We had a hell of a time with Vic when he was on this. Of course. Bill, you're okay with it? Yep. Yeah. So I'll make a motion to approve selling a 2020 Ford Explorer and a Kubota zero-turn mower at the CapCOG auction on July 15th.

Is there a second? Second. All those in favor? Aye. Motion carries.

Last up, discussion and possible motion on mowing grass at the Moonlight Diner. They're gonna be able to bail that probably tomorrow.

I finally found the owner. He told me that he was out of the country for two months for a family emergency. He just got back last week. In other words, he's in India. Okay. So he said that he is going to contact a contractor to get that mowed within a week. Okay. Stay on that, Jerry. It's an

eyesore right there.

And also, he wasn't aware that his partner had given permission for a trucking company to park their bobtails there and park other equipment there on the weekends. And he said he will take care of eliminating that and securing the driveway so they can't drive in

there. Okay. I noticed

that there were quite a few bobtails in there. Right. So do you anticipate this being done by the time we have our next meeting? Hopefully. Yeah, okay. Yes. He told me it could be done within the week. All right. Well, I think if it's not done, we put it on our agenda for next Wednesday. And, you know, if we have to, can the township-

We can do, we can take action on that today, that if it's not mowed within the next week, then staff is given authority to mow the property and to place a lien on the property.

Yes.

The Water

Authority's already put a lien on the property for failure of paying water and sewer bills. And the county tax bureau has already posted the property because they are two years behind in two-

Presiding officer: In two years?

Gerald Steigleman: Two years. So they said that if their taxes aren't up to date by July 1st, then it goes onto the tax roll or tax sale. Wow.

All right. Well, then I'll make a motion that if the Moonlight Diner does not cut their own grass by July 1st, that the township will be authorized to cut the grass and put a lien on the property. Second. All those in favor? Aye.

Aye.

And I don't know if this is an appropriate time for you to give us maybe a little quick update. Since this is in your purview, it sort of reminded me of the Diamond when you told me they couldn't find the owner, and I said, "Oh, my God, here we go again-

Unidentified speaker: Here we go.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... with another property." And I notice the Diamond, of course, has not been boarded up.

Unidentified speaker: That is executive session.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Okay. Thank you.

Unidentified speaker: That's executive

session.

Okay.

Township staff comments.

Any com-

comment

Mark?

We have a plan to sign after the meeting with-

Mark D. Carpenter: Okay.

Presiding officer:... your people. No other comments. Anything else from you, Jerry? No, no. Solicitor? No, sir. Here we go again, paying you the big bucks, don't get anything. That's it.

Billy? No, I agree with Slattery. Brian? Just by way of update, Cumberland Preserve, phase one, all the streets are now finished, paved. We're actually-

Presiding officer: All the streets in there?

Gerald "Bud" Grove: In phase one. Uh-huh. In Meadowbrook 10, as of yesterday afternoon, the streets are done. There's just a little bit of additional repair works and existing structure attractions, but essentially the streets are done there too.

That development is now filled complete, right? Not quite, but pretty much. Mark can tell you how many. There may

be 20 more lots

I said. No, I'm talking about Meadowbrook 10. Meadowbrook. Oh. Oh

there's one lot, the last lot's being built now.

Wow. That's been how many years? Yeah. 20 years?

Since '95

'96. Okay. Yeah, the-

Mark D. Carpenter: 30 years.

Presiding officer:... it was a 10 phase plan. Yeah. All right. Zach?

Yeah. Yeah, we have staff getting to work on getting RFP stuff. They've already accepted the, for our trash contract that'll be coming up next year. We're in the final year of the contract. So we're looking maybe for any input from you guys for-

Presiding officer: Planning to send it to three?

Zach Zook: No, there's actually more. Uh-

Presiding officer: More than that?

Zach Zook: Yeah, they're saying there's between seven and eight different haulers now. Oh. So we're hoping for a nice competitive bid this time, be able to save some money. Yeah, it'd be nice for once. But yeah, if you guys have any input or any comments on what you'd like to see.

I know we actually just worked through an issue, somebody reached out to Bill this week, about some missed trash. Um-

The one comment I remember, Zach, here at one of the meetings not too long ago, was a different size, a smaller... You remember? Mm-hmm. Okay.

Yeah, so that is an option that we're looking at. I know it's something that's not just become popular, but you see more of it. Yeah. They've gone away from, it used to be the tag the bag programs. A lot of the companies have gone away from that because their trucks are automated. Yeah. So they have the arms on them. So they've gone to these smaller toters. Right. They may be two gallon, 35 gallon tote. Something like that, yeah. You can probably fit three or four garbage bags inside of it. But yeah, that is an option.

That's something that we are looking at as well. Okay, cool. One of the other things from the previous contract to this contract, bulk items went from, I believe, every week to once a month. They're actually saying maybe going back to the once a week. 'Cause right now, I guess the current company's coming in and they actually have to make several trips in one day, rather than if they could maybe have people call in and do once a week. Right. They could just do one trip in, one trip out every week, rather than making that multiple trips in that single day.

Makes sense.

So that was one of the other items that we're talking about.

Cool. I think the biggest thing is just having that option so people can, you know, maybe have a single person who doesn't create a lot of trash, not to have to pay the higher amount for the larger toter-

Zach Zook: Yeah.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... to have the smaller. And I can understand if the tag a bag doesn't work anymore because everything is automated. You don't have someone on the back of the truck picking it up and throwing it in. I can understand that, but at least there's another option. It'd be nice to have when we're looking at these bids to make sure everyone gives us, you know, those different options.

Right. They're smaller bins anyway. Okay.

I got one more, just in case status center update, which brought to our attention at the planning commission meeting too, the speed signs on Country Club Road weren't working. The county could actually take our speed signs down. We're putting those back up. But we're gonna reach out to the developer. I think they had said they were actually moved, the speed cart that had the sign-

Presiding officer: Oh, yeah.

Zach Zook:... on there moved, and that they're currently not working. So that's something that we need to follow up

with- Get fixed

yeah.

Okay.

And I believe you're out there, you said you were out there this morning and had to redirect-

Yeah, but that's-... spot on the road... I don't think that has any, I don't know if that has anything to do with- I

think it, the-

Presiding officer: Okay.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... I think they had a spot that they marked out for repair. That amount

of equipment there, geez.

And I just wanna thank the planning commission. I think there's three members here today. I know it's a lot of work. I know there's room for improvement. I appreciate Mr. Gehr's comments about, you know, getting information out in a timely fashion. I think you understand, you know, what's the legal requirement is 24 hours, which I don't think is adequate, so we're certainly meeting the legal requirements. You know, I've been discussing this with township staff for months now that we really need to get stuff out ideally a week in advance. I do know sometimes things come up, and meetings are canceled, but I understand you're giving up your time, you're putting it on your schedule.

And people have things to do and places to go, and maybe you canceled other plans because you had a meeting, and then it's canceled, you know, within 24 hours. I really think that is inappropriate, and I think the township needs to do better. I appreciate that we've got some positive feedback on the newsletter and the website. I think it's still a work in progress. We have a lot of work to do to improve communication from the township. You know, I think we have a dedicated staff here who's working on that, but, you know, we're just, we're trying to change things little by little.

I think we're making progress. But I agree with you, Jim, that there's a lot of room for improvement, and there's a lot of things we've talked about internally. We're gonna continue to work on that, and I hope as the year rolls on that, you know, you'll see more and more enhanced communication from the township, and hopefully we do a better job. I think it's gonna require, you know, everyone to pitch in and get things out in a more timely fashion. I know we're trying to, like we mentioned the last meeting, hire an outside firm to do minutes which then can be posted hopefully in a draft form, if the solicitor's okay with it online.

You know, those are discussions we'll have to have internally, but to get those out in a more timely fashion, 48, 72 hours, and hopefully we'll have better turnaround. You know, people hear we're a very, I would say kind of a skeleton crew. You know, I'm like you, I spent my whole life in private industry and running my own business. And, you know, you always think from the outside that government's just lazy and bloated, and Middlesex Township is not like that. We have a lot of dedicated people, and we're very fortunate to have the dedicated group here who has a lot of knowledge.

And, you know, obviously Bud does a great job here, and-

Presiding officer: Yeah.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: I think he keeps an eye out, you know, for the township and for the residents with these things. You know, Gary with codes enforcement, you know, Mark with zoning, Zach and Eileen. You know, we have a great police department here. I think we really have an excellent staff here. You know, I'm saying that as somebody who was... you see, you know, almost every meeting in 2025, and thinking that I would come in and boy we'd make a lot of changes.

And there are changes that need to be made, and I think we're trying to make them. But I really have been very impressed with the staff and the operation we have here at the township. And I think everyone is really, you know, is looking out for the residents in our day-to-day activities. We do have room to improve and we're gonna keep trying our best to do that, so thank you.

Okay, we need an executive session, correct?

Well, we have

the, we have the resident-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Resident.

Presiding officer: Yeah. Question

and answer. I'd like to give a little update about the data center. Okay. I was at the site yesterday. They're starting to build at the back of the PPL site, a retention wall. And so I got to see the site and talk to some of the contractors, including the president of Liberty Excavating. The president impressed on me how important this project is for Central Pennsylvania and for Middlesex Township, and how many business people are gonna be employed out there, plumbers, electricians-

Presiding officer: Yeah, when it builds.

Mark D. Carpenter: excavators. They partnered with another company to be able to handle a project of this size, New Enterprise Stone.

And every piece of equipment out there, they have 60 workers, every piece of equipment is working every time they're out there. And the front part of the property where phase one is, where the PPL site is, is almost to grade. It's almost finished. Along the road, along Country Club Road, they finished the northern part of the berm, so you can hardly see the site from houses along Country Club Road. The southern start, part of the berm is still being built on and added to. Yeah. In the back, they're beginning to hit the final grade for the phase 1A, the first campus of the data center.

Phase 1B. So you can see some real-

Presiding officer: 1B.

Mark D. Carpenter: 1B, phase 1B, campus one. So you can see real progress out there. I think we have a weekly site visit every other week, that we canceled the recent one. But at the next one, maybe they could take us on a field jaunt to see, you're gonna see a lot of changes to the site and see what it's gonna start to look like. They got a lot of steel out there, you're right. This is such a major and important project for Middlesex Township. I know there's a lot of negative things said about this project. I think we need to try to focus on this project differently.

I've come to the realization that they're doing everything to meet everything that's in our ordinances. Yes, there's things that are missed initially, then we have review comments. We have excellent work by HRG-

Presiding officer: Yeah.

Mark D. Carpenter:... and Bud to make sure they're on task. HRG's tasked me to interpret some things, and I help them and move them along also. We're looking at everything in the ordinance. We're moving them along. They're very cooperative. I've been at three meetings they had for residents to inform people about blasting, and Phil was at the last meeting. I think that's been very productive. So I'm trying to look at this project in a positive light and understand that this is one of the largest projects in the whole Harrisburg area in the last 50 years, and has great benefits for the community and the area.

Thanks, Mark.

I appreciate that. Mark?

Yeah.

I don't know who I'm supposed to answer this question, but why can't they go to natural gas for their generators?

This was brought up at the planning commission. They would have double the amount of generators. Zach, I think it's around close to 600 generators, diesel, 560. Around five, 500, something. Five- 532. Yep. So these are diesel engines, the same as what's in a truck, except they are tier four. They are under the DEP for their air quality permit. They'll be testing them as required. If they go to natural gas, they're telling us they have to double the amount of generators. The bottom line is they choose not to, and there's nothing in the ordinance to require it if they meet the air quality standards of DEP.

The planning commission is pushing it. They even made a recommendation that they do that in one of their motions.

I believe a natural gas engine runs hotter too, so there'd be more heat. And they probably would not have the emission system along like a diesel engine would have, so you'd probably have a little more noise as well with a natural gas generator. Now-

They let us know that they are coming up with a system to avoid fills. Each generator has several thousand gallon diesel tank that feeds that generator. So they're gonna have a system of lines, delivery lines, double walled fuel delivery lines that goes to each generator to a central point-

Presiding officer: Right.

Mark D. Carpenter:... where a tanker truck would just go to one offload point, less chance of spillage at, by filling each one of the belly tanks on each generator. Each

generator.

And I

from what I understand is that this is a mission critical facility-

Mark D. Carpenter: Right.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... that they cannot shut down. Natural gas comes from outside the facility. If there would be something wrong with delivery of natural gas via piping into the facility-

Mark D. Carpenter: That's true.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... and they have to use a generator, they can't run. And you can't have that with a mission critical facility. You have to have your fuel source on site. That's my understanding of data centers and why they generally like to use diesel on site as opposed to natural gas.

Mm-hmm. They explained that to us on that site plan. Okay.

Mrs. Brickey, go ahead.

Is there, has there been any forward movement- If, if

you could, I, we know who you are, but your name and address, please.

Kelley Brickey, Elizabeth Way. Just wanted to know if there's been any forward movement on the getting the contract executed with the identified engineering firm that's going to be working on the comprehensive plan in

2024?

Exactly. That's the-

So Mark and I briefly met with HRG yesterday. That is something that they want us to begin to look at, trying to get some steering committee members, recommendations for that. Something I was actually gonna talk to the board here in executive session here. So we've hired HRG to- We have hired HRG

and that was- Okay. Great. That's not been executed.

Yes.

All right. Thank you.

Good morning. Earl Beam, Country Club Road. Zach, if you're entering Country Club Road, the first speed thing does work. The one that doesn't work is the one down at the bottom where like the gates are. Okay, second question is, this morning, about half past 10 minutes, what are they doing to the road at the end of Country Club Road?

I think there was a, it was starting to fail there, so they're gonna do another patch repair on it.

Well, I was sitting there. When it's not, a few, but there was about 10 cars sitting there. Some white van passed all us at excessive speed on there. Almost hit one of the flag people standing there. I'm just saying, that was a little dangerous situation this morning. And lastly, I wanted to let the supervisors know, PAX-1 has reached out to some of us already on Country Club Road, to our concerns we have about water, radon, and that evaluation of our property. So that's really good information I wanted to pass on, that they are starting to reach out to us.

Yeah. Oh, and the touch base, I did contact PPL. Their supervisor of their deliveries has assured us that they are gonna be bringing their deliveries to the PAX-1 site. They're gonna be coming in off Route 11, coming in Country Club, that direction. They will have some deliveries actually leaving the site and going out Country Club towards Bernheisel Bridge for projects that they're going out that way, but the majority of the deliveries coming to the site will come off Route 11 and Country Club Road.

Yeah. The last couple days there's only actually two-

Zach Zook: Yeah.

Earl Beam:... loaded ones coming to the site. So thank you for that. Yeah.

Presiding officer: Thank you, sir.

John Minter, Wolf Creek Road. My only question is, why do we need, and what value added is it going to be for us to allow those folks to build a solar farm in the vicinity of the Army Heritage Center?

How do we benefit from it?

I think we benefit as taxpayers if the... Maybe I shouldn't opine, but I'm gonna opine anyway. You know, the savings is projected to be $19 million over 30 years. That's assuming a 2% increase per year in energy cost.

I

I wish my energy

costs, electricity costs, were only going up 2% a year.

I'd be very happy about that. So I think there's a potential for savings to be significantly greater than what they're anticipating. I think in terms of renewable energy, it's a perfect location for something like this. It's not near residential. It's right near 81. It's right next to the LNG facility. To me, it seems like an ideal place as opposed to, you know, what was proposed, and is still proposed, on South Middlesex Road, which is still in, has been litigated, and we're waiting, I believe, for the opinion from Judge Smith on that project.

So to me, it's a tax savings for the residents of the county.

Unidentified speaker: The county? I mean, what does it specifically do for Middlesex Township?

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Well, you pay county tax. When you get a tax bill, you pay county tax. Your county tax bill for real estate is higher than your bill for Middlesex Township real estate. Obviously not higher than what you're paying to the school district. So in an effort to save money, the county is trying to make sure that they do not have to have a tax increase in the millage rate for county real estate tax. That's the benefit for all residents of the county, of which Middlesex Township is part of.

Who is in charge for management the sewer in PAX-1?

I think the sewer primarily goes to the Middlesex Township Municipal Authority in conjunction with the sewer treatment plant that's along the Conodoguinet on North Middlesex Road, which is owned by Carlisle Borough.

Is anybody involving in the sewer service?

Can you repeat that?

Are there anybody involving in the sewer service between Middlesex?

I'm not sure I understand the question. I mean-

Okay, I wanna read something here that's for Rory.

"The authority has in effect a sewer service agreement with both the McNaughton Company and Fortune Land, and both agreements are legally binding to their respective successor. So I believe this will apply to the both project for sewer capacity."

Fault. And continue.

"Design construction and it also speak to the need for additional capacity in the future. If the alluded ado except the currently capacity in the eight-inch sewer main on Country Club Road, it appear that an increase in capacity will be need in the future as this project move along. So I will be remind in not calling this to the township attention for future road improvement planning from the both side to US Route 11.

Some of the priority discussion with the developer engineering have been around treatment facility, and we feel this will be down the road. But who know who fast this project will move? Again, I will ask the Cape, the lawyer, to address item three under the preliminary final land development supporting document. Thanks, Rory."

That conversation happened in July 2022. July 22, 2025.

I think I could explain this, if you'd like me to take a stab. You speak all along.

Hold on. Let me give you the mic.

Yeah.

I think I understand what Hilda's talking about. You're reading from some documents you got from Right to Know. Fortune Land Company and McNaughton Companies are the two prior property owners that owned the property where PAX-1 is now. Fortune Land and McNaughton Company had agreements with Middlesex Township Municipal Authority to provide sewer and water service to the property, and primarily sewer was the concern. The concern was that the lines going down Country Club Road are not adequate in size to handle all the flow from approximately fourteen hundred houses that were gonna be built there. Mm-hmm. And they may have to dig up along Country Club Road all the way to Route 11 and under Route 11 to the sewer, Carlisle sewer main, to replace an eight-inch gravity line that you mentioned when you were speaking.

That actually has happened with the PAX project. The PAX project currently has a sewage planning module in front of the board of supervisors. The planning commission talked about it last Monday. Part of that planning module is a requirement that all the, as I explained it to planning commission, all the sewage from the PAX site will flow to a, basically a tank. And then a pumping station will be installed there, and then they will replace the line all the way from the PAX site, they've already replaced part of it, to Route 11 and under Route 11 to the sewer main to increase the capacity of that line to handle sewer.

Part of it'll be gravity, part of it'll be force main, so that the sewer needs can be met for the Carlisle Preserve development that's there, the existing neighborhood, Circle Drive and that area, and also the PAX-1 project. So PAX-1 is taking on that cost to upgrade the sewer from their site all the way to Route 11 and to the sewer main. So that's what... That's some of the information you dug up. That's what that's about. So I'm not sure-

Hilda Vazquez: Yeah, um-

Mark D. Carpenter:... what other question you have. But the-

Hilda Vazquez: But my-

Mark D. Carpenter:... municipal authority is handling that. Keith is aware of it.

The board's aware of this.

McNaughton continue under that agreement with-

McNaughton's agreement and Fortune Land Company's agreement for the Pantera property have been replaced by agreements with Pantera, with PAX-1. Keith? Yeah. Is that correct?

Yeah. Both McNaughton, Fortune Land, and PAX-1 is together now under the agreement with the Middlesex Township?

Fortune Land and McNaughton are no longer property owners at that 700 acre site. PAX-1 has taken ownership of the entire site. PAX-1 has an agreement to provide sewer to their development on that property. Fortune Land and McNaughton agreements are not in place anymore. But they did buy capacity years ago. 2006 was when that actually began.

But I read something what he... I'm not sure if McNaughton review and approve or modify it, so we re-articulate that the version we are sending them has not been approved by McNaughton. The document existing like McNaughton approve, change, modify recently after this conversation.

This is something the authority is working on. This is a matter they're working on-

Mark D. Carpenter: No, but he made that meeting.

Hilda Vazquez: I get addressed with. He made that conversation. He have to make sure if some change happened.

I'll tell you what I recall from five years ago. McNaughton and Fortune Land each had an agreement where they reserved capacity for residential development. When the properties were acquired by PAX-1 or whatever the owner is presently, they acquired the capacity rights in those two agreements because they bought the property. Now, the authority is dealing with what PAX-1 needs to do in terms of sewer capacity and making sure that whatever sewer comes off the property development ends up going to the Cardinal Treatment Plant.

That's

the sum and substance of everything I remember from five years ago.

These are commentate, these documents are 2025, last year.

If you wanna provide a copy of that document-

Yeah.

... for the township, I'll be glad to look at it. Yeah. This, um

the conversation is with Elaine too.

I'll be glad to take a look at that.

Developer agreement, Middlesex Township, Cumberland Mall. I have all conversation, including, but putting in that information. He asked for the developer agreement. There is none to which the township and Clock Row property in a party, there is no document provided.

I need to see the document. If you can provide it, I'll take a look at it, and I'll-

Hilda Vazquez: This document-

Keith O. Brenneman:... certainly do a better job of answering your question

at a later date... this document, this document, I'm, uh, copy for my right to know in my computer because I can show you directly to my computer because that coming for the, his, when he send me directly to the-

Share file... link-

Share file.

I can show you. I have... When I finish here, I can show you the information because I have in my computer. This one is my paper, but I finish-

We could copy this. If we could copy the paper. I

I, this one I put in here from the original record. I can show you the original record because I don't want confused. I have in my computer.

Well, if this information all came from the township, Zach has a share file that he can share with the solicitor. And if you have specific questions about the sewer, I know this doesn't pertain to Country Manor West, but you have your own sewer system. So what you're asking about is not something that pertains to you personally. I understand you have the right as a resident to ask these questions. We're getting a lot of right to knows. And that's every- you know, everyone has a right to ask for information. But, you know, when the share file is shared with the solicitor, if he has any concerns, he can address them with you in the future.

If you have concerns about the Municipal Authority, I know you've reached out to Mr. Morrison on numerous occasions with many right to knows. You know, you can certainly come to the Municipal Authority public meetings and ask questions there as well.

Yeah. I make a question to Mr. Roddy, but he never responds what I ask him. Last time I'm assuming right to know about mayoral sewer, and he don't respond what I ask him. And now I have appeal in open record because he denied the record. That's why I'm making the question here, and I'm use the paper by my group.

Right. I think we've told you all we can tell you at this point. Next comment.

Okay. I'm Monica Kurtz, Teaberry Drive. Okay, I really don't wanna be here. I don't think many of us do. I also did not want to go to a blasting meeting. I'm gonna tear up again. Okay. It's not what in our senior years my husband and I thought we would be doing. Walking out to our door, seeing a tag, "You're invited to a blasting meeting." It did not go well. The people at our blasting meeting were very upset. Daily, I get a notice on our phones of a notice for blasting. We did not buy a house in Middlesex to live this life. We're both retired.

We're trapped in our house. We can't sell because of the value. Where are we gonna go? This is the future. Mark, look at me. Mm-hmm. We're not having fun. What you guys did to us was wrong. Now, either you are that guy at the state who think it's all okay-

It'll be good to talk to the board supervisor-

Okay. Well, you said it was that... The other thing is, did I'm gonna get a little out of order here. But did you research Pennsylvania Data Center Partners? Have any of you researched them?

They're not good people.

Andrew whatever his last name is, put Harrisburg and Mayor Reed into 280 million in debt with the Harrisburg incinerator project. In best case, this is just a quick search I have. Best case is past judgment on projects has been poor. In worse, it demonstrates a willingness to saddle local communities with debt while reaping its fair own profits. This is who you are listening to when they tell you, "Oh, this is going to be great for the community." You're listening to the snake oil salesman. You're not listening to science. I wanted this to be okay because as I said, we are trapped. And by the way, our house is the closest one to these monstrosities.

I feel sorry for Country Club, but we're gonna have them in our backyard for the rest of our lives. Thanksgiving, Christmas, we're gonna look out at that sound. Now, if we have to live with that and we can't stop it, and believe me, I am financing, as is my family, the legal. We're doing that first because I'm a fighter. I'm not gonna- I cry, but I fight, and I'm gonna remember what you all did for the rest of my life, as will everyone that I can reach out to. Okay. We met with Barb Greer on Tuesday, and that's another thing we did. We go to rallies.

I was in college in the '60s, and I never protested. I'm a protester now. I'm in the capital with the "Stop this no data center" sign. This is not who I am. This is who you have turned me into. Okay. We met with Barb Greer, and she's a lovely woman. But I mentioned, I hope I'm wrong, but phase one, there's going to be older equipment. Is that memory correct? Then they said that believe the later phases, they would put the newer stuff on. Could you check that? The first two- I

mentioned it to Barb... the first two buildings is what they told us

yes.

Okay.

That's the one in my backyard. I want the newest stuff there. And she agrees, and she said she was shocked that we were supposed to have the best equipment. So please check that. If I have to have this monstrosity in my backyard, I want the quietest. Okay. Me too. The CBA equipment, Zeum- Mm. She apparently came to you guys and told you her idea for it and because in ten years, and she said this to me Tuesday, they're gonna be obsolete, and she wants some of that money put for decommissioning the old stuff that's gonna be left there. And she didn't mention all those monstrosity motels that we're looking at.

And I'm glad you care about Moonlight Diner when you put this monstrosity in our backyard. I mean, nobody even notices Moonlight Diner, but that's even an issue. Okay. I think I pretty much said everything that I had to say. Yes, that's it. Thank you. Thank you.

What's your first name? Huh? What's your first name?

Monica Kurtz: Monica.

Arlene Darlington: Monica. Okay. All right. I think you all know me, but my name is Arlene Darlington, Wertzville Road. I tend to speak at all these meetings because I think my words are important. I recognize that Don was here at the PC meeting on Monday, and Bud was here, and of course you guys. But so I just wanted to share something that I and a couple of others confirmed with the representatives that were here from Livic on Monday. And also to Monica's point, to make a comment to you, again, informational, about the decorum that their lawyer presented to us, and specifically to me.

It takes a little bit to get me offended, and I was really pissed off at that guy. You know, at his level of importance that he, you know, walks around, I guess he, you know, he just glows with self-pride. His behavior to me and to others at that meeting was downright disrespectful. Now, you folks have chastised us residents for our emotions, our behavior, our outbursts. We're not lawyers, at least I'm not. Maybe some of you folks are. I wish that somebody representing the township at that meeting on Monday had told him to behave himself and act like the professional that he pretends to be.

Because next time I will say something to him. He wouldn't even turn around and look at me, and the topic was an old one, the number of generators. The topic I specifically asked, in almost every meeting I bring this up because I feel like we've never gotten clarity from the developer. Well, a couple of meetings ago when we had Charlie Courtney and Justin Ross

here, it was a planning committee meeting.

Actually, it was said at a planning committee meeting, and again, we don't have minutes, so I can't reference the exact time, and I believe it also happened at a board meeting as well, where I keep asking for this exercise schedule, the maintenance schedule for the generators. And previously the number was four thirty-two. Now it's up to five hundred and thirty-two, which was a surprise to me. So I asked the attorney, what's his first name?

Andrew? Andrew. Anthony? Andy.

Andy. It's

gotta be Andrew for sure.

John. Okay. So I asked him because he was kind of like new to us. I think he had been here once before, so I wanted to bring it up again. And I said, you know, "The number of generators," and it took a little bit, but it was confirmed at five thirty-two. So my number had to bump it up because I had the math on four hundred and thirty-two generators. It's about nine hours of testing a day. So I had to quickly do the math at the end of the meeting. I informed everybody, "Oh, by the way, now that we're up to five hundred and thirty-two generators, the testing, the hours of testing per day, Monday through Friday, from now till eternity, is thirteen point three hours." So just think about that.

Think about the Monicas, think about the Jody Shivells, think about the Viola Byerlys, think about the Earl

Beams that live...

This is in their backyard or their front yard.

For thirteen point three hours of generator testing, Monday through Friday, for the rest of our lives. So that was just Arlene sharing to you, hopefully making an impact that you can take home, and when you're sipping your coffee, you're thinking, "Yeah, those generators are running. Yeah, those generators are running." Whatever the noise level is, apparently it meets our township, excuse me, our township level, you know, minimal lev- or you know what I mean, threshold levels. What we don't talk about is air quality. What we don't talk about is odor. What we don't talk about is heat. And I'm not an expert on these generators, but I'm a little surprised that those topics don't come up. They're not raised by you folks. They're not raised by the planning committee. So just, you know what? Ask them. Please, ask them because they're rude to us because we're apparently peons.

We're only paying, you know, paying the taxes to live here, but we don't matter. So just ask them. Andrew...

What's his name?

Andrew? Andrew Giorgione. He would not look at me when I said, I requested... Well, part of the approval, as I understand from previous meetings being here, is that the approval to finally build phase One B is contingent on us getting the maintenance schedule. You know, so we'll know. And he flat out said, he wouldn't even look at me, he flat... I'm sorry, I'm looking right at you, Phil. He flat out said, "The tenant is not gonna release a maintenance schedule." And he just dug his heels in and I was mildly shocked. Not at the rudeness, because I already signed him up for that, but I was shocked that the table seemed to be turned because I remember Charlie Courtney nodding his head, agreeing to provide the maintenance schedule.

I don't mean every day starting at eight o'clock we're gonna turn a generator on and we're gonna test it. I want confirmation that my math says thirteen hours of testing a day. We have a right to know, you have a right to know, what this damn tenant plans to do to our, the quality of our air and our noise and the odor. And we don't even talk about the state constitution, which we have the right to be, to have that available to us, but this particular mission-critical project apparently is exempt from that. Ma'am. Yes.

Go with what Charlie Courtney told you. Seriously.

Oh.

Because he told you-

Well, he didn't tell me. He didn't tell me about the schedule and whatever.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the schedule, the math-

Presiding officer: Right.

Arlene Darlington:... you can't refute the math. It's thirty minute testing window, every month for every generator. So thirty times, half an hour times five hundred and thirty-two generators is two sixty-six hours. Divide that by-

Presiding officer: I understand.

Arlene Darlington:... twenty. Anyhow, that's what my math came out. Okay. So I wanted to basically tattle on him that he was rude to us and to me specifically. And my other, da, da, da, da, tenant won't disclose. Yeah. Okay. So if we could keep that as a let's circle back to that and make sure that we understand, because my notes said four hundred and thirty-two generators.

Somewhere along the way, it went to five thirty-two, and that increase in hours of testing, and nobody's bringing that up. So- Well

okay. So I'm done. Thank you. I will speak to them because they have no right to be rude and disrespectful to the residents. So I will bring that up with them-

Arlene Darlington: Thanks.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... because that's not appropriate, and I'm sorry that you were treated that way. I know a lot of people are focused on the generators, and I understand the concern. The tenant has not yet been named. The tenant is the one who will determine the number of generators. That has not been written in stone at this point. Okay. The testing schedule is based on the warranty of the units that are gonna be installed.

They have to run a certain period of time per month to meet warranty specifications. Right. Yep. I did spend time talking to our local representative from the Department of Environmental Protection, who will issue the permit if the project moves forward, pending the appeals. If the project moves forward, the DEP at final land development will issue a permit that will allow the run schedule for the generators.

We will

not have any details on generators and run schedules until final land development and the DEP permit is issued. So the project that's in Lancaster right now, I'm sure many of you following the CoreWeave project, Greenfield Road Data Center, smaller than the proposed data center in PAX-1, they were approved per generator to run one hundred hours per year. The developer said, "We don't need that. We'll take the, you know, what you're allowing us, but we're gonna run twenty-five hours per year per generator." Much smaller generator field than what's proposed for PAX-1. None of this will be identified until final land development and DEP permit.

So we... I'm on this. I talked to the DEP-

Arlene Darlington: Okay.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... to our regional person and to get an understanding. I talked to the South Central director, as well as the air quality manager for our region about how... Because I wanted to know how does this happen? How do we know what the run schedules are? And we won't know until final land development, DEP permitting, and then we'll know what that schedule is proposed to be, and we can certainly at that point take resident input. You know, what's ideal in terms of run schedule, time of day, and try to limit it as much as we're permitted by the township.

But most of this, unfortunately, is out of our control. It's under the control of the state. And the one thing I would ask everyone to do is look at PurpleAir monitors. I know some of you went to the Clean Air Board presentation a few weeks ago. I know those retired physicians that are on that. Good friends with a Dr. Carey, the pulmonologist who started that back in the 1990s. He's no longer involved. They asked me to sit on that panel, and I declined. But the purpleairmonitor.com, I encourage everyone to look at that.

You can see real time air quality sort of throughout the world. Mostly United States, it's the eastern half of the United States. Look at Ashburn, Virginia. The AQI in Ashburn, Virginia, which is data center alley, I've never seen it over fifty. It's really shocking to me that it's not higher than that. Certainly you get into urban areas, Philadelphia, outside of New York, you know, you'll see AQIs that can be high depending on the weather. But data center alley, and again, look at this. This is independent people that are, you know, mostly anti-data centers who are putting these monitors out.

And the AQI in Ashburn is, I've seen it zero on numerous occasions, and this is real time monitoring. So I'm not saying there's not an issue with generators. There's an issue obviously with eighty-one. We have a monitor, several monitors in Carlisle. There's a monitor in New Kingston. Look at this stuff and follow real time air quality. This is data, real data from modern air quality monitors. So I encourage everyone to look at that. But I understand the generator issues. I'm concerned about it. That's why I spend time talking to DEP. We'll have more answers if this project proceeds. It may or may not proceed based on the appeal.

And if it proceeds, we'll have that at final land development. So we'll have answers at some point. Well, I

appreciate you confirming that there is somebody keeping an eye on that, because it shouldn't be me. So I'm glad I raised it, so I have a certain comfort level that it's being watched, and to tell me what, you know, the steps and where this-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Yeah.

Arlene Darlington:... finally gets defined, I guess.

And I will speak to that, to the people from Mr. Giorgione and Livic, and tell them they need to treat our residents-

Arlene Darlington: Uh-huh.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... with respect.

Yeah.

Thank you.

They get excited when we get excited, but, you know, they can set the tone. Yeah. Thank you.

Uh-huh.

We were at the Clean Air meeting in Carlisle, and the DEP

lawyer there actually said that

the Miracle Mile was so polluted that she felt like it would work in our favor because of the cumulative effect of air pollution, that you wouldn't put a data center there because of that. So I think that's the thing. Virginia doesn't have... Those people are not by the Miracle Mile. With the, and we just found that out, the idling of the trucks, apparently that's really bad, because I thought I had really clean air. We've also heard that, like, originally the generators were put closer up to Country Club Road, but the air was not pure enough for the generators, so they had to go down low near the Conodoguinet where we are.

So you can't compare our air with the air in Virginia. You have other things that are going on in our area that the cumulative effect doesn't work. Also, oh, Clean Air contacted me and my husband or someone is gonna have one of those air monitors. They're that concerned. The Clean Air people are horrified. Well, their whole thing was on data centers. That's why we went. I mean, I know some of those doctors too. I never went to one of the meetings. I thought, "Well, that won't ever affect me." And there I am. Again, another thing we hadn't planned on.

We've become in Clean Air. So we're gonna have one of the monitors. I'm trying to get another one for somebody else too to monitor that. The other thing is the sound in Virginia. I'm sure they told you. I understand you went, you listened. Yeah, but you understand that you probably went, like, to the best one. You think that's what we're gonna get here? I mean, in seven hundred acres. If you research why these data companies, XD at Animal, Pennsylvania, there was a guy, again at the Clean Air, who said it was, "It's our local government. Our governor doesn't have a lot of power.

You guys do." And they researched that and came in and focused on you. You, and you have to look at how you were made targets for this stuff. And they knew you wouldn't know. I mean, a month ago or two months ago, we didn't even know what a data center was. Now I'm a semi-expert on it. And they focused in on you knowing that you wouldn't know the horror that you are opening the door to. And the other thing, Barb Greer, or Blonde, thinks it's too big. She's like one generator. Because I commented, why does it have to be this big?

It doesn't have to be that big, you know? I'm not even, at this point, wasn't totally against data centers. I thought, well, they have to be somewhere. But the more you learn about them, wow, they don't need to be in Pennsylvania, they're that horrible.

Okay. Mrs. Kurtz. Yeah. You've far exceeded your three minutes. I'm sorry. You also came up a second time, and you interrupted Mr. Gerber, who's been standing in line.

Monica Kurtz: I did ask him.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: So I-

Monica Kurtz: No, I did ask him.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... so I think we've, you've had your time.

Monica Kurtz: I would never-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: We appreciate your comments. And now to Mr. Gerber.

I did ask him. I would never do that. If I don't ask that, I asked him. I wanted to follow up on whatever her name was. I forgot about that. You know, I don't know what you guys realize, like you realize they took you to the premium quiet place. I hope we get that.

Kyle Gerber, Bernheisel Bridge Road. Um-

Nice

... I have a question to board supervisors. This is a use by right, it's outlined in the ordinance. There we go. And that's been cited many times as why the township doesn't really have any teeth to be able to, I don't know, impose any conditions on the project. And my question specifically is why, what was the rationale behind permitting data centers, which, as I understand, is a new use prior to 2025. Why did we write into the ordinance that data centers are a use by right? They are something that are so impactful on a local community, it seems that it would be incredibly unwise to not reserve the ability to impose conditions upon them.

And yet in Middlesex, they have a right to be built anywhere that they are a valid use in the ordinance. And all that the township can do is flag whether they do or do not check ordinance boxes, and there's no ability to use discretion and discernment on a situation-by-situation basis at all. And I specifically would like to hear from Mr. Geistwhite and Mr. Goodhart, since they were the ones on the board at the time that that decision was made. I'm

gonna speak on behalf of the board. Since you're an appellant in the case-

Kyle Gerber: No, no, no. We've been-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: uh-

Kyle Gerber:... through this.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... in pursuing the board of supervisors. I think it's not in our best interest to answer your questions in a public forum. I think your questions can be answered in the courts, where the case is going to end up. If the solicitor thinks otherwise, it just makes sense for me to speak on behalf of the board that this is a pending legal case. Those questions will come up in court. And, you know, you're an appellant in the case, and I don't think we have any comment.

Well, I respect that. I suppose, I still think it's a fair question, outside of any pending legal appeals, and if anybody else wants to ask it, it's something that I think it's something that's worth consideration and something that the, you know, residents should have a right to know, like what was the rationale? Because the minutes don't document any particular rationale as to why it was written as this type of use. But thank you for your time.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Understood.

Thank you.

Excuse me for coming up again, but I just want to set the record straight with the diesel versus natural gas generators, okay? The primary component for a natural gas generator is water vapor, vapor, and carbon dioxide.

And that's it. Diesel is a lot more pollutant than that.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Thank you. Agreed. Thanks, Ralph.

Just a basic question. Jody Shivell, Teaberry Drive, and it's on the blasting, which I know I could take it to them, but I just wanna make sure we're all on the same plan, and I'm not understanding. When they were cited for the incident that occurred, it was my understanding that they came to an agreement that they would blast 25% less. Is that correct? That's correct. Okay, because there was 50% conversation, and then it went to 25, and I still wasn't sure even when I left the blasting meeting what it was. Okay, so I am still feeling at our home...

Now, the day after, DEP must have came out to the site. Is that correct? They came out to the site the next day, or that day?

They came out within 24 hours. Yeah.

So then there was another blast, maybe not the next day, maybe, or the following one, and things were actually relatively calm in that blast. Now, we're back to blasting again, and they're strong. So yesterday's was shaking the house again. And it looked like it was a pretty big blast from the photos. And I don't know, maybe some make more dirt than others, depending on how much dirt they put on or over it or around it, you know? So I don't know enough about that. So I'm still saying that I'm questioning the strength of what they're putting in is okay for some of the areas around that blasting site. I know they have rules. They're allowed to do this, and they have the seismographs that say, you know, what they're doing. But it may be how our lands are set up where those vibrations are coming out. It's kind of open where I am, except for the trees right now, because they're full. But it's shaky in some areas. I mean, you know, and a comment the blasting person made speaking was it was like a child running through your house, compare it to that, but that's no comparison to what we feel with these blasts.

So if you're having that, and if it was once or twice, maybe not an issue, but it's day after day after day, that's a difference of the constant shake. I have a pool, I don't even know how I'd know if that was affected out, and that's at the back of the property, near the creek. You know, unless I see a massive water loss all of a sudden, and you can see that happens, you know, with the humidity and this. But so my concern is, are we really blasting at a level that is gonna be used day after day after day?

Should it be a little less? I don't want, I mean, I don't wanna see it come to double blasting a day in order to lessen charges and make that work, because then you're exposed to more blasting. But I'm just not sure they're, I question they're actually down to 25%, or that's not enough. That's my thought.

So did you find the session to be helpful at the barn?

I found it to be informative for people maybe who have not been, you know, as involved as, of course, some of us with that. So how can I say, you know, it was informative, but I still feel that what they're saying they're doing is not enough for the residents that are feeling the effects, that really feeling the effects. I mean, they're out into the community of the Meadows, I would guess, also them, if I'm getting that. Because I'm across the creek. You know, you go down the slope, you have the creek, you're up, then I'm up on a hill, there's all that land it comes through. So I don't know how it's flowing in, but it's shaking my backside of my house. Right. And I have cement blocks, of course, in the basement, and that's what I'm saying. Maybe they're doing what they need to be doing, maybe not, or maybe what they're doing needs to be a little less.

Well, I think that's something you certainly can reach out to Fabio, you have his contact information-

Jody Shivell: Yeah, I can.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... his email-

Jody Shivell: Yeah.

Dr. Phil Neiderer:... the Pottsville office, the DEP, to lodge complaints. Okay. And the township has no control over that. We have no control over, you know, the force of their blasting. I think we're probably somewhat fortunate that they elected to reduce by 25%. I don't know if your personal experience has been much different, but if you have complaints, I would reach out to Fabio, I would reach out to the Pottsville office or the DEP to lodge your complaints and concerns, because we as a township can't control that.

Right. But I do want you to be aware.

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Well-

Jody Shivell: You know? I want-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: I understand.

Jody Shivell:... my voice, I want you to know, because you are the township, and you are the supervisors, and that-

Well, I want them to understand, the 25% is not reducing the amount of blasts. Right, the holes. It's the number of holes.

Yes. Okay. So I guess, you know, a point blank question is, how many holes? I think, when they did that one, it was, was it 60? I'm not sure how many holes it was. The last how much, Mark, do you know?

What I recall is they were drilling around 500 holes at the blast that was in violation. Okay. Now it's somewhere around 300. Okay. Sorry, 375. 375, maybe. Yeah. So maybe we...

300.

But it's totally up to

DEP-

Mark D. Carpenter: I know.

Jody Shivell:... like

Phil said.

Well, yeah.

Well, and when I talk to the developers today to tell them to, you know, not be rude to our residents, I'll also tell them that, you know, we're still hearing a lot of concerns. I hope. And whatever they can do to mitigate that, we would appreciate on the township level.

Yeah, that would be appreciated.

Okay. And I will call

Fabio and- Thank you... you know, go there.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I asked to the drilling, when I'm in the meeting Wednesday, I'm ask the guy for the drilling company if they, if it's mandatory they make the study in the land across the creek before they start blasting, but he don't respond.

Well, I was there at the meeting. I saw you. I asked the question. That was Wednesday night, this is Friday morning. I think they were going to look into it. Whether you get an answer or not, I'm not certain, but I know he heard you and he said they were gonna look into it. Yeah, but you're telling me what I should say. Ma'am, she has the podium, please.

I know. I actually asked for, or to-

Dr. Phil Neiderer: Go ahead.

Ashley Asper:... first, rather. I guess my question kind of bounces off of his. So in the future, I know that this is an overlay, and if we do more overlays like this for people that wanna come in and put this on different properties, is there a way to make these

like, conditional uses

instead of just blanket giving them 75 feet? And obviously next to the neighbors, 75 feet seems a little excessive.

Right. I think that's something that when we start our comprehensive plan, you know, certainly hope that, you know, we have people from all over the township on that. Again, this is not just an anti-data center document, but the whole point of this comprehensive plan is to then look at our zoning and make changes so that those changes are important to the residents. Again, we currently, as you know, have a moratorium or a pause on further data center overlay or data center development in the township, which we did in January or February. First of the year. And you know, that's long, months before anybody from the state government recently said this week that, you know, the house bills that are being bantered about are saying we should put a pause on this.

We did this months before the representatives have voted on this. But that comprehensive plan will hopefully allow us to look at our zoning and change it to make it consistent with what the residents of the township want. And that's one of the things that, you know, it will be a special exception, right, or conditional use, versus permitted by right.

Right. So

thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Okay, we're gonna move on to an executive session.

Right. Do you want to stay for that?

What?

Stay

Jerry, no action on the executive session. No. Meeting is adjourned. Okay. Meeting is adjourned.